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  1. #1

    Oath to the Queen is Constitutional

    There was a thread about this a year ago but I am too much of Luddite to reactivate it. Here are the facts. Three prospective Canadians, an Irishman, a Jamaican and an Israeli found that the oath to the Queen that all persons applying for citizenship take violated their rights to freedom of conscience, religion and expression. The lower court dismissed saying that while the oath to the Queen violated their rights to expression it was saved by s. 1 of the Charter. At the Court of Appeal the lower court ruling was upheld, it then went to Supreme Court and they upheld the lower court in part, but then overruled the finding that the oath did violate freedom of expression, which means that the oath does not violate the Charter at all. The only drawback is the Court at all three levels did not award costs against the Applicants. My view is that this was a lot of hooey and should never have been put before the Courts in the first place, but we live in an inclusive society and in thoroughly trashing their arguments I believe the Supremes have got it right (for once ). I will now go to my bunker near York University and ride out the storm.
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  3. #2
    CW Staff Writer Thundah is on a distinguished road Thundah's Avatar
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    This is a toughie.... Honestly even if you don't care the slightest for the Queen, you're only going to be forced to recite the oath once in your life in this instant.

    The benefits of being a citizen should technically outweigh the brief violation of freedom of expression.

    If you can't deal with the changes in culture, you are going to have a tough time integrating.

    But this can lead into the can of worms about citizens not wanting to maintain association with the Royal Family, which is pretty much symbolic more than anything.
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  4. #3
    An editorial that I agree with:

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...ticle13204987/

    Lucien Bouchard was also required to swear allegiance as Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Commons.

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    CWiki Contributor of the Year - 2009 ctjj.stevenson is on a distinguished road ctjj.stevenson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhino Rob View Post
    An editorial that I agree with:

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...ticle13204987/

    Lucien Bouchard was also required to swear allegiance as Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Commons.
    And Monsieur Bouchard is still the Honourable Lucien Bouchard, P.C., G.O.Q., (member of Her Majesty's Privy Council for Canada).
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    CWiki Contributor of the Year - 2009 ctjj.stevenson is on a distinguished road ctjj.stevenson's Avatar
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    I am happy that we continue not to allow new arrivals to Canada to force us to change our laws. If the Irishman wants to be an Irish republican ... well, Ireland is still on the other side of the Atlantic. Jamaica and Canada shares the same Queen.

    One thing I love about this country is that we are ready to accept peoples from all over in the world. However, we should not be dictated by people who do not want to recognise what this country is.
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  10. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundah View Post
    This is a toughie.... Honestly even if you don't care the slightest for the Queen, you're only going to be forced to recite the oath once in your life in this instant.

    The benefits of being a citizen should technically outweigh the brief violation of freedom of expression.

    But this can lead into the can of worms about citizens not wanting to maintain association with the Royal Family, which is pretty much symbolic more than anything.
    That is a common misunderstanding and exactly what the court dismissed.

    As you know, I administer the Citizenship Oath in both official languages that of course includes the oath of allegiance.

    As the court has said, the oath is not a declaration encompassing the person of the sovereign.

    We swear allegiance to Canada in the name of our head of state and promise to obey the law and do our duty as a Canadian Citizen.

    The oath is also not a one way pledge that is recited with nothing coming in return. The sovereign in the coronation oath has promised that Canada will be governed according to Canadian law and custom and it is guaranteed that the Canadian Crown, the Canadian State will protect our rights and freedoms. That is the most important role of those we elect to office. And if we don't think they are -- we have freedom of speech, association, and assembly and in the end we have a vote. There is also recourse to an independent court system that will rule on any question of freedom. As it has here.

    We live in a great country. The Crown is the overarching institution that keeps it that way.

    Canadians in waiting learn from the study guide that "In Canada, we profess our loyalty to a person who represents and Canadians, not to a document such as a constitution, a banner such as a flag or a geopolitical entity such as a country. In our constitutional monarch, these elements are encompassed by the Sovereign. It is a remarkably simple yet powerful principle: Canada is personified in the Sovereign just as the Sovereign is personified by Canada."

    Not a concept that is quickly understood. We swear allegeance to Canada in the name of our head of state that represents the Canadian State and Crown.

    Furthermore, to suggest that the oath only applys for an instant or that born in Canada Canadians do not swear the same oath is nonsense. The Citizenship Oath is equal to the oath sworn by Members of Parliament, Members of the Legislatures, Canadian Forces Members, Peace Officers and a long list of occupations that require an oath of allegiance and office where the requirements are to "obey the law and do ones duty" Duty requires doing the right thing as well as doing things right.
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    DA Wright is on a distinguished road DA Wright's Avatar
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    Not surprising that GWP expressed it so well; could not have said it any better. The oath is sworn to the institution of the Crown and not to the personage of the Crown.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DA Wright View Post
    Not surprising that GWP expressed it so well; could not have said it any better. The oath is sworn to the institution of the Crown and not to the personage of the Crown.
    The oath is done towards the institution that is Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II in Right of Canada, and not towards "Elizabeth Windsor" (I know that it is incorrect to state that Her Majesty's last name is Windsor, because in fact, she really does not have one. However in the case of my sentence, it made sence to "give" a last name to Her Majesty the Queen). However, republicans I guess do not wish to understand this (because of course, they wish that this country becomes a Republic). In the words of a great man (and a member here on Cadet-World) - "if it is not broke, then do not fix it." The institution of the Monarchy in Canada is different then in the United Kingdom. Our monarchy is very much our own - and has nothing to do with British oppression over the Irish.
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  15. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhino Rob View Post
    An editorial that I agree with:

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...ticle13204987/

    Lucien Bouchard was also required to swear allegiance as Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Commons.
    I don't think comparing a parliamentarian to a group of republicans is accurate or fair. They seem to err towards civil disobedience when the separatist politicians were respecting the conventions in order to achieve their goals. Either group appears to me as self-serving but that's a story for another day.

    F.R. Bosse, BA(Hons.), G.Dip, rmc

  16. #10
    Neo is on a distinguished road Neo's Avatar
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    It is interesting to note however, that Canada seems to be the only realm which still calls HM the Queen of the United Kingdom and Canada in her title.

    Whereas other nations (e.g. Australia, New Zealand) strictly call her Queen of Australia and Queen of New Zealand.

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    Maybe when the Prince of Wales becomes King, we will change his formal Royal Title as either:

    His Majesty King Charles the Third, by the Grace of God of Canada and His other Realms and Territories King, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, Sovereign of the Order of Merit, Sovereign of the Order of Canada, Sovereign of the Order of Military Merit, Sovereign of the Order of Merit of the Police Forces, Sovereign of the Royal Victorian Order, and Sovereign of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem.

    Or

    His Majesty King Philip the First by the Grace of God, King of Canada and of His other Realms and Territories, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.

    Or

    His Majesty King Arthur the First by the Grace of God, King of Canada and of His other Realms and Territories, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.

    OR

    His Majesty King George the Seventh, by the Grace of God, King of Canada and of His other Realms and Territories, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, Sovereign of the Order of Merit, Sovereign of the Order of Canada, Sovereign of the Order of Military Merit, Sovereign of the Order of Merit of the Police Forces, Sovereign of the Royal Victorian Order, and Sovereign of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem.
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    quadrapiper is on a distinguished road quadrapiper's Avatar
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    Is there any change in titles if HM is acting in relation to a province - asking only as I seem to recall Lt Governors are direct representatives?

  19. #13
    Wiper is on a distinguished road Wiper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quadrapiper View Post
    Is there any change in titles if HM is acting in relation to a province - asking only as I seem to recall Lt Governors are direct representatives?
    From the Lt Governor of Alberta Page. Looks like it would be CEO

    History of the role

    Canada and Alberta FlagsUnder section 9 of the British North America Act 1867, The Monarch is Canadian Head of State and thus, The Monarch of Canada. Under the British North America Act, Lieutenant Governors act as the Queen's representatives in Canada. The Office of Lieutenant Governor of Alberta came into existence in 1905 when the Federal Government, by act of the Dominion Parliament, created the Province of Alberta.

    Since the Statute of Westminster of 1931, Canada has been a fully sovereign state. However, Canada has chosen to remain a member of the Commonwealth. The Monarch is Head of the Commonwealth.

    In the early years of Confederation, lieutenant governors were agents of the federal government, and were expected to advise the provincial government on federal legislation and ensure that provincial legislation conformed to that of the senior government. Over the years and with the gradual increase in the authority of provincial governments, the lieutenant governor's role as a federal agent has virtually disappeared. The role is now focused primarily on responsibilities as the Sovereign's representative and Chief Executive Officer of the Province.

    The Offices of the Monarch, Governor General, and Lieutenant Governor are entrenched in the Canadian Constitution, and no changes can be made to the Offices without the unanimous approval of all Provincial Legislative Assemblies, and the Senate and the House of Commons in Ottawa.
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  20. #14
    The role is now focused primarily on responsibilities as the Sovereign's representative and Chief Executive Officer of the Province.
    I would love to know who wrote this, and whether or not they finished grade 6.

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  22. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by quadrapiper View Post
    Is there any change in titles if HM is acting in relation to a province - asking only as I seem to recall Lt Governors are direct representatives?
    No, although in legal terms when referring to provincial jurisdiction, the Crown is referred to as Her Majesty the Queen in Right of (name of province).
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  23. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjj.stevenson View Post
    Maybe when the Prince of Wales becomes King, we will change his formal Royal Title as either:

    His Majesty King Charles the Third, by the Grace of God of Canada and His other Realms and Territories King, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, Sovereign of the Order of Merit, Sovereign of the Order of Canada, Sovereign of the Order of Military Merit, Sovereign of the Order of Merit of the Police Forces, Sovereign of the Royal Victorian Order, and Sovereign of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem.

    Or

    His Majesty King Philip the First by the Grace of God, King of Canada and of His other Realms and Territories, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.

    Or

    His Majesty King Arthur the First by the Grace of God, King of Canada and of His other Realms and Territories, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.

    OR

    His Majesty King George the Seventh, by the Grace of God, King of Canada and of His other Realms and Territories, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, Sovereign of the Order of Merit, Sovereign of the Order of Canada, Sovereign of the Order of Military Merit, Sovereign of the Order of Merit of the Police Forces, Sovereign of the Royal Victorian Order, and Sovereign of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem.
    That is assuming that the choice of regnant name is limited to one of the Prince of Wales' given names and I'm not certain that this is necessarily the case.
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  24. #17
    Neo is on a distinguished road Neo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LCdr Gene Fedderly View Post
    That is assuming that the choice of regnant name is limited to one of the Prince of Wales' given names and I'm not certain that this is necessarily the case.
    I think the practice has been to choose one of names at baptism to be monarch.

    Queen Victoria was Alexandrina Victoria.

    King Edward VII was born Albert Edward.

    King George VI was Albert Frederick Arthur George

    HM the Queen was asked what her regnal name would be, and she apparently remarked, "Well my own name" (or something to that effect)

    From what I've read, Charles will likely not rule as King Charles III as Charles I & II are less then stellar. The good 'bet' would be him ruling as George VII to honour his grandfather, though I would propose that Charles may choose to reign as King Phillip to honour his father (especially if the Duke outlives HM).

    It's widely doubted that neither Charles or William will choose to reign as King Arthur.

    I'm still hoping that an heir to the throne will be baptized with a name of Ralph, and finally give the commonwealth a King that can rock and roll with the best of them.

    And of course, all this talk of succession makes me feel so very low. So let's us exclaim, Long live the Queen!

    Edit:

    I also have a strong gut-feeling that if Prince Philip outlives HM the queen, that Charles (either as King George, Philip, Arthur or Charles) will issue a proclamation changing the House of Windsor to the House of Windsor-Mountbatten, or to the extreme House of Mountbatten.

  25. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Neo View Post
    I think the practice has been to choose one of names at baptism to be monarch.
    That has certainly been the practice, and he will most likely adhere to it, but I do not believe it is a requirement.

    I would imagine that the change to Mountbatten-Windsor will probably happen.
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  26. #19
    jamiesonaelick is on a distinguished road
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    I like it better than Saxe-Coburg Gotha.
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  27. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by jamiesonaelick View Post
    I like it better than Saxe-Coburg Gotha.
    So did the Royal family.
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