+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 31
  1. #1
    CW Social Media Team Member dan76937 is on a distinguished road dan76937's Avatar
    Join Date
    2012
    Location
    Port Colborne, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    175
    Gender
    Blog Entries
    14

    Drill Questions..

    Well I thought I'd start this thread for anyone that has questions about drill and the more "drill orientated" members of CW could answer them!
    So I'll start of by asking:
    When a flag party dips their coulors, does the national flag touch the ground? If so, what situations is this done in?
    WOI Dan Smith
    79 Lynton Davies Squadron
    Remember the difference between a boss and a leader; a boss says go- a leader says "Let's go".
    england canada

  2. #2
    BlackPage is on a distinguished road BlackPage's Avatar
    Join Date
    2012
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario
    Posts
    174
    Gender
    Blog Entries
    16

    Sea

    The national flag is never dipped. Also, the dip is only done at a slow march. Other flags and colours may be dipped, including provicial flags.
    PO1 Ellen Molloy (Ret.)
    HMCS Ontario Basic Seamansip-Bonaventure-2011
    HMCS Ontario DCI-Collingwood-2012
    CSTC Connaught ARMI-Delta Coy 2Pltn-2013
    HMCS Ontario Staff Cadet-Accom-2014

  3. #3
    CW Social Media Team Member dan76937 is on a distinguished road dan76937's Avatar
    Join Date
    2012
    Location
    Port Colborne, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    175
    Gender
    Blog Entries
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPage View Post
    The national flag is never dipped. Also, the dip is only done at a slow march. Other flags and colours may be dipped, including provicial flags.
    Lol ok.. I've seen the legion flag party dip coulors at the rememberance day ceremony in my town.. Is this correct as they were not marching?
    WOI Dan Smith
    79 Lynton Davies Squadron
    Remember the difference between a boss and a leader; a boss says go- a leader says "Let's go".
    england canada

  4. #4
    Note that flag parties carry flags, not colours. It's not a colour party, even if the flag you are carrying is being paraded in the same manner as a colour would be paraded.

    National flag is not dipped. Legions do that, but sometimes Legions do weird things. Doesn't make it correct within today's context with today's policies and guidlines.

    When on the march, Miss Molloy is correct, it is only done at the slow march. When at the halt, there are provisions for when a flag or colour is dipped (eg. at sunset during the Ceremony of the Flags or a Sunset Ceremony).

    JB
    Run until you can't. Then run some more

  5. #5
    CW Social Media Team Member dan76937 is on a distinguished road dan76937's Avatar
    Join Date
    2012
    Location
    Port Colborne, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    175
    Gender
    Blog Entries
    14

    Big Grin

    Quote Originally Posted by Juice View Post
    Note that flag parties carry flags, not colours. It's not a colour party, even if the flag you are carrying is being paraded in the same manner as a colour would be paraded.

    National flag is not dipped. Legions do that, but sometimes Legions do weird things. Doesn't make it correct within today's context with today's policies and guidlines.

    When on the march, Miss Molloy is correct, it is only done at the slow march. When at the halt, there are provisions for when a flag or colour is dipped (eg. at sunset during the Ceremony of the Flags or a Sunset Ceremony).

    JB
    Ok thank you sir! What's the difference between a colour and a flag? Is a flag a national flag and a colour something like a squadron banner?
    WOI Dan Smith
    79 Lynton Davies Squadron
    Remember the difference between a boss and a leader; a boss says go- a leader says "Let's go".
    england canada

  6. #6
    Swag is on a distinguished road
    Join Date
    2012
    Location
    Edmonton,Alberta,Canada
    Posts
    7
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by dan76937 View Post
    Ok thank you sir! What's the difference between a colour and a flag? Is a flag a national flag and a colour something like a squadron banner?
    A color is a consecrated flag,like a Canadian flag.
    Your squadron banner is not consecrated.
    If you have a consecrated flag in your party then it is a color party,otherwise it it just a flag party.

    Hope that helps
    You should have learned this on BDCC/BLC
    PACSTC-09-BASIC TRAINING
    PACSTC-10-BASIC LEADERSHIP
    PACSTC-12-DRILL & CEREMONIAL INSTRUCTOR

  7. #7
    CW Social Media Team Member dan76937 is on a distinguished road dan76937's Avatar
    Join Date
    2012
    Location
    Port Colborne, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    175
    Gender
    Blog Entries
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by Swag View Post
    A color is a consecrated flag,like a Canadian flag.
    Your squadron banner is not consecrated.
    If you have a consecrated flag in your party then it is a color party,otherwise it it just a flag party.

    Hope that helps
    You should have learned this on BDCC/BLC
    Thanks I know i should of learnt it but it literally rained for a week straight so we missed out on a few drill lessons..
    WOI Dan Smith
    79 Lynton Davies Squadron
    Remember the difference between a boss and a leader; a boss says go- a leader says "Let's go".
    england canada

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Swag View Post
    A color is a consecrated flag,like a Canadian flag.
    A Canadian flag wouldn't normally be consecrated. An example of a consecrated flag would be a regimental colour or a Queen's colour. In the air force there is a Queen's colour and a Command colour for the RCAF as a whole, and operational flying squadrons with 25 years service or which have earned the Sovereign's special appreciation for outstanding operations can receive their own colours as well.

    There's a CF publication called The Honours, Flags and Heritage Structure of the Canadian Forces that explains flags and colours (and numerous other things) in detail, including a section on cadet flags. It might be worth asking if your unit has access to a copy if you'd like to read up on it.

  9. #9
    I would have posted earlier but I wanted to make sure I had the time to do a proper job.

    To begin with, let me define some terms:

    Even though all of them are considered flags, for the purposes of this post, there are three different kinds of flags I will be talking about:

    Flags: Flags. Pieces of bunting or other material, attachable to a staff or halyard, and used as a means of identification or for signalling. As a generic term, it includes Colours. In this [post] it specifically means only those non-consecrated flags which may be carried on parade, i.e., Commemorative (Royal) banners, the National Flag, the CF Ensign and Command Flags.

    Colours: Consecrated ceremonial flags which are carried by, and mark the identity of, Canadian Forces (CF) formations and units, and include: Queen’s Colours; Standards; Guidons; and Command, College and Regimental Colours.

    National Flag: What most people call the Canadian Flag. It is a flag but it is afforded many of the honours reserved for Colours.

    Dipping Colours is a special form of salute that is only done on specific occasions or for specific people.

    According to the CFP 200 (The Honours Flags and Heritage Structure of the Canadian Forces):

    h. Dipping the Colours – means:

    (1) rendering a Royal salute with Colours to entitled dignitaries as noted in Chapter 13, Annex A, or

    (2) lowering the ship's ensign so that it is down to a position two-thirds of the extent of the halyard when returning a salute from a merchant vessel.
    Note is says dipping Colours. Flags are not dipped as a form of salute - ever. The National Flag is not dipped because it is the national flag (the CFP 200 says: "The National Flag shall not be dipped or lowered by way of salute or compliment.") and flags that are not consecrated are not considered Colours so may not be dipped as a form of compliment.

    The Legion dips flags at the drop of a hat for just about any reason and they are wrong.

    CF Custom is that only those who are entitled to a Royal Salute (or during things like the consecration of new Colours if a Royal or vice-regal personage is present), will be afforded the honour of having Colours dipped for them. The list of people who get that honour is in the CFP-200 but, basically, it's certain members of the Royal Family, foreign sovereigns and heads of state (including Governors' General) and Lt Governors of Canadian provinces within their own province. Note, even the Prime Minister is not entitled to a Royal Salute and Colours are let fly for the PM and not dipped.

    As a cadet, you will never be carrying Colours (even though some veterans groups refer to their flags as Colours when they are clearly not). so you should never need to dip anything.

    I have no idea why they bother teaching dipping at the D&C courses because it's not a movement a cadet will need. That time would be better spent on other, more useful, drill movements.
    gliderwingsJ-P Johnson cd1
    Barrie Ontario
    The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.

  10. The Following 2 Users Like This Post By J-P Johnson :


  11. #10
    quadrapiper is on a distinguished road quadrapiper's Avatar
    Join Date
    2005
    Location
    Shawnigan Lake, BC, Canada
    Posts
    3,290
    Gender
    To muddy the waters, there are those cadet flags that are treated as for drill purposes are colour-equivalents; the Army and Air Cadet unit flags especially.

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by quadrapiper View Post
    To muddy the waters, there are those cadet flags that are treated as for drill purposes are colour-equivalents; the Army and Air Cadet unit flags especially.
    Yes and no. According to the CFP200, those flags parallel Colours and, per CATOs, treated as Colours in certain discrete circumstances, but not all circumstances.

    If asked, I am of the opinion that we should be able to dip the cadet flags that parallel Colours but, as written, neither CF nor cadet specific regs allow it.

    But, again, that opens up a whole other line of argument that flags and Colours are not paraded together in a Colour Party so, if the cadet squadron banner is to be treated like a "Colour-equivalent", neither the ensign nor the National Flag may be carried alongside it.
    gliderwingsJ-P Johnson cd1
    Barrie Ontario
    The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by J-P Johnson View Post
    The Legion dips flags at the drop of a hat for just about any reason and they are wrong.
    Not any more.

    http://www.legion.ca/_PDF/Manuals/Ri...gnia2011_e.pdf

    IAW para 915 and para 514, only the Legion Banner (consecrated) is dipped.

    The Legion is a bit like Cadet Units. What the book says and what happens are two different things.

  14. The Following 2 Users Like This Post By Rhino Rob :


  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhino Rob View Post
    Not any more.

    The Legion is a bit like Cadet Units. What the book says and what happens are two different things.
    I am aware of the Legion policy change but what you said is what I meant. Legion, Anavet and many other "Colour parties" routine ignore - or are ignorant of - their own policies. So much so that I had to deal with our local Legions CP commander once when he tried to chew out our sqn's flag party for not dipping flags one Nov 11th.
    gliderwingsJ-P Johnson cd1
    Barrie Ontario
    The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.

  16. The Following User Likes This Post By J-P Johnson :


  17. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by J-P Johnson View Post
    I have no idea why they bother teaching dipping at the D&C courses because it's not a movement a cadet will need. That time would be better spent on other, more useful, drill movements.
    I actually taught the the dipping class on the BDCC course this summer and specifically told my cadets, "You will NEVER use this as a cadet, because cadets are not authorized to carry colours." I agree with you 100%, that time could be much better utilized.
    Capt Derrick McKee
    Commanding Officer
    875 Antigonish Lions RCACS

  18. The Following User Likes This Post By AI09McKee :


  19. #15
    BlackPage is on a distinguished road BlackPage's Avatar
    Join Date
    2012
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario
    Posts
    174
    Gender
    Blog Entries
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by AI09McKee View Post
    I actually taught the the dipping class on the BDCC course this summer and specifically told my cadets, "You will NEVER use this as a cadet, because cadets are not authorized to carry colours." I agree with you 100%, that time could be much better utilized.
    I took DCI this summer and we never officially learned it. We talked about it in our free time, off handedly as we talked about other drill movements... But I doubt it's in either ciriculum, and I sure hope it isn't. While sure, it may be fun to know, you don't need it and I'd rather spend the fifty minutes learning how to prefect something.
    PO1 Ellen Molloy (Ret.)
    HMCS Ontario Basic Seamansip-Bonaventure-2011
    HMCS Ontario DCI-Collingwood-2012
    CSTC Connaught ARMI-Delta Coy 2Pltn-2013
    HMCS Ontario Staff Cadet-Accom-2014

  20. #16
    We were taught dipping flags/colours on DCIC this summer. We also used dipping as a lesson some got to teach for the instructional PO checks.
    Officer Cadet A. Schambers
    Former WO1 80 K-W Spitfire Squadron

  21. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Fox 2 View Post
    We were taught dipping flags/colours on DCIC this summer. We also used dipping as a lesson some got to teach for the instructional PO checks.
    Hence why DCIC should be a national course, so that there can be a uniform standard of knowledge.
    Captain J. Gleiberman cd1
    Everytime I think I am out, they keep pulling me back in.
    Grand Poobah of the SAW
    Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich stärker.

  22. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by J. Gleiberman View Post
    Hence why DCIC should be a national course, so that there can be a uniform standard of knowledge.

    I'm going to play Devil's Advocate hear and say that the proper conduct of a course IAW the Qualification Standard would accomplish the same goal.
    Capt JMA (Jamie) McKay

  23. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by JMcKay View Post
    I'm going to play Devil's Advocate hear and say that the proper conduct of a course IAW the Qualification Standard would accomplish the same goal.
    The logical extension to that argument would be then just hand everyone the QSP and the standard would be set. By further extension you shouldn't need a standards cell to snoop around and make sure the standard is being taught if they are following the QSP.
    Captain J. Gleiberman cd1
    Everytime I think I am out, they keep pulling me back in.
    Grand Poobah of the SAW
    Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich stärker.

  24. #20
    Another common error that I have remedied at my corps but is still perpetuated on D&C at CSTC Argonaut (and possibly others) is lowering of swords while saluting on the march.
    Before I get ahead of myself and stick my proverbial foot in my mouth, is there any Regimental traditions that take precendence over the 201 in this particular situation?
    Last edited by Armoured Recce NB; 11th September 2012 at 12:35.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts