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  1. #1

    Legion tells veteran group to stop poppy use

    Quote Originally Posted by CBC

    The Royal Canadian Legion is claiming ownership of the poppy and threatening legal action against a Canadian veteran group for using it as part of their logo.

    Intellectual property law firm Ridout and Maybee LLP, which represents the Legion, threatened legal action against a motorcycle group, the Canadian Veteran Freedom Riders (CVFR), September 1 if they did not remove the poppy from their logo.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...trademark.html
    Personally, I think the Royal Canadian Legion may be going a bit too far with this.

    Offending group CVFR (their logo is also copyrighted )

    Royal Canadian Legion (several copyrighted logos)

    Will the government have them stop using the maple leaf? Will Colt Canada have them remove the C7?

    Army Cadet League of Canada Liaison Officer
    57 Vankleek Hill, 2403 Cornwall & 2804 Casselman
    My opinions are my own and may not always reflect the views of the ACLC........sorry

  2. #2
    I just joined the CVFR, they're a fun bunch.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by rwgill View Post
    Personally, I think the Royal Canadian Legion may be going a bit too far with this.

    Offending group CVFR (their logo is also copyrighted )

    Royal Canadian Legion (several copyrighted logos)

    Will the government have them stop using the maple leaf? Will Colt Canada have them remove the C7?
    So, it's okay to the CVFR to have a copyright for their logo that we're supposed to respect yet they don't accord that same respect for someone else's logo? Is that it?

    Sorry, but the CVFR is wrong here.

    This is a motorcycle club. Their work in the community basically involves them riding their motorcycles to events. The Legion uses the money from poppies to do staggering amounts of good in the community. I would absolutely want to protect that brand name.

    I have issues with the RCL that would fill volumes but with respect to poppies - or rather that particular design of poppy - I'm behind them 100%
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by J-P Johnson View Post
    So, it's okay to the CVFR to have a copyright for their logo that we're supposed to respect yet they don't accord that same respect for someone else's logo? Is that it?

    Sorry, but the CVFR is wrong here.

    This is a motorcycle club. Their work in the community basically involves them riding their motorcycles to events. The Legion uses the money from poppies to do staggering amounts of good in the community. I would absolutely want to protect that brand name.

    I have issues with the RCL that would fill volumes but with respect to poppies - or rather that particular design of poppy - I'm behind them 100%
    The meaning of the poppy has grown and it is partly the RCL's own fault. The poppy today either symbolizes remembrance or a veteran. Most veterans' plates across Canada use the poppy as a symbol but the RCL approval to obtain such a plate is not required in BC, PEI and NWT. Most people in Canada associate the poppy with remembrance and Remembrance Day.......................not the RCL, regardless as to who owns the rights.

    Oddly, the RCL had Canada Remembers (part of Veterans Affairs Canada) stop using the poppy in its promotional materials. Now CR uses generic poppy photos/images and there is only one image that closely resembles the RCL's poppy.

    This is not the first time the RCL has done this:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/...ppy051108.html

    Will CW be the next target?

    Army Cadet League of Canada Liaison Officer
    57 Vankleek Hill, 2403 Cornwall & 2804 Casselman
    My opinions are my own and may not always reflect the views of the ACLC........sorry

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by rwgill View Post
    The meaning of the poppy has grown and it is partly the RCL's own fault. The poppy today either symbolizes remembrance or a veteran. Most veterans' plates across Canada use the poppy as a symbol but the RCL approval to obtain such a plate is not required in BC, PEI and NWT. Most people in Canada associate the poppy with remembrance and Remembrance Day.......................not the RCL, regardless as to who owns the rights.

    Oddly, the RCL had Canada Remembers (part of Veterans Affairs Canada) stop using the poppy in its promotional materials. Now CR uses generic poppy photos/images and there is only one image that closely resembles the RCL's poppy.

    This is not the first time the RCL has done this:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/...ppy051108.html

    Will CW be the next target?
    The meaning of the poppy has not changed one iota.

    In reading the comment sections of media websites, it's obvious that we now live an age where feelings and conjecture replace fact. The number of people who say the Legion has to standing because the don't "own poppies" makes me wonder if all the lead they used to put in paint is now coming into play in people's thought processes. Of course the Legion doesn't own all poppies - they never claimed to - just that one version of one.

    No-one owns the sun but that doesn't mean you can appropriate the logo of any company that uses the sun in their branding for your own purposes either.

    And to be perfectly honest, seeing as the CVFR has copyrighted that logo, this is just a straight up copyright infringement case - with both being veterans groups merely being a big fat red herring.
    gliderwingsJ-P Johnson cd1
    Barrie Ontario
    The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by J-P Johnson View Post
    - just that one version of one.
    The Legion owns and uses quite a few versions. Looking at the CVFR, it's hard to tell if their version comes close.

    http://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/tr...IndexOnPage=31

    http://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/tr...IndexOnPage=41

    http://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/tr...IndexOnPage=41

    Is this that one poppy is a copy of another poppy, or is it that someone else chose to use a poppy?

    I would argue that the meaning has changed.

    It is no longer "I remember"

    It is now "I remember TM Royal Canadian Legion 2003"

    The poppy, in fact, was first noticed as a sign of remembrance by the French during Napoleonic wars. The RCL even admits that it is an international symbol.

    http://www.rcl617.com/Poppy.html

    You will see some pictures here, of some different remembrance poppies, from different countries. They all look similar. Perhaps CVFR is using the ANZAC version?

    Hopefully Poppyman doesn't get sued. We wouldn't be able to see him



    The Canadian flag and maple leaf are also trademarked. Should we be prohibited from using those as well?

    I too read the comments on the CBC site. I see great ignorance from both sides of the table. The greatest example being that the RCL is the oldest...........it was formed some 80 years after ANAVETS.

    Army Cadet League of Canada Liaison Officer
    57 Vankleek Hill, 2403 Cornwall & 2804 Casselman
    My opinions are my own and may not always reflect the views of the ACLC........sorry

  7. #7
    ICortezz is on a distinguished road ICortezz's Avatar
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    I saw the news about this this morning and I was outraged; veterans wanting to use legal action against other veterans?! It makes me sick.

    I also heard that in the design that the CVFR is making, they are using a British poppy..not the one trademarked by the RCL. Weather is matters if it's British or not, I don't know.

    Just my two cents.
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  8. #8
    There doesn't seem to be a good reason to trademark something like this, since I see it changing from it's original symbolic meaning, to a business logo.

    This is a very backwards thing to do. The RCL promotes poppy as a free symbol and when you see the cadets, or whoever in front of a store door with a carton of them, they're by donation, not a price (you can have one for free if you wanted to), but as soon as a group they don't like uses the symbol, it's pretty much 'no, you can't use that symbol, it's ours' and the cease-and-desist is sent out.

    I support the remembrance symbolic meaning, but I don't support turning it into a business and using it with a trademarking scheme like this.
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  9. #9
    I think the poppy issue is only a small issue of a big debate: "Those the RCL own rememberance day?" (Or do they think they own rememberance day)

    In the years past I have seen them refuse the participation of other groupe into parade even if they contain veteran because it didn't fit there vision. Or flying the Red Ensign at the place of the current Canadian flag. (I understand that it was under that flag that some f them faught under but others have serve under the current flag and it wasn't in the flag party)

  10. #10
    DA Wright is on a distinguished road DA Wright's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rwgill View Post
    The Legion owns and uses quite a few versions. Looking at the CVFR, it's hard to tell if their version comes close.
    On The National, 27 Oct 11, a rep from the group indicated the poppy within their badge was based on the UK design.

    I'm sure our resident legal expert could weigh in on this, but I would not have thought that an image of a person wearing a poppy would be a violation of the RCL's trademark anyhow, specifically when the poppy design is used is not that of the RCL per se, but rather a generic poppy image. Regardless, while I understand the need for the Legion to exercise propietary control over their image, or risk losing it to the public domain, surely they can do that by furnishing a letter of permission that specifically details the extent to which the CVFR can use the logo. By issuing a cease and desist order, they look petty.
    Last edited by DA Wright; 28th October 2011 at 07:47.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by DA Wright View Post
    On The National, 27 Oct 11, a rep from the group indicated the poppy within their was based on the UK design.
    My response to that is "rrrriiiggghhht".

    It's clearly meant to be the "Canadian" poppy. A day's pay says that the UK poppy never occurred to them until someone brought it up on a media comment board.

    They're caught, they know they don't have a legal leg to stand on so now they are changing their story.
    gliderwingsJ-P Johnson cd1
    Barrie Ontario
    The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by J-P Johnson View Post
    My response to that is "rrrriiiggghhht".

    It's clearly meant to be the "Royal Canadian Legion" poppy. A day's pay says that the UK poppy never occurred to them until someone brought it up on a media comment board.

    They're caught, they know they don't have a legal leg to stand on so now they are changing their story.
    Fixed it for you The Canadian government cannot use the poppy.

    The RCL stopped Canada Remembers from using this:



    Perhaps the CF and CCO should stop wearing the RCL version and create a generic, non-affiliated version of the flower. Don't want to show preference to one veterans' group over another.

    Army Cadet League of Canada Liaison Officer
    57 Vankleek Hill, 2403 Cornwall & 2804 Casselman
    My opinions are my own and may not always reflect the views of the ACLC........sorry

  13. #13
    dhillon will become famous soon enough dhillon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DA Wright View Post
    On The National, 27 Oct 11, a rep from the group indicated the poppy within their was based on the UK design.

    I'm sure our resident legal expert could weigh in on this, but I would not have thought that an image of a person weraing a poppy would be a violation of the RCL's trademark anyhow, specifically when the poppy design is used is not that of the RCL per se, but rather a generic poppy image. Regardless, while I understand the need for the Legion to exercise propietary control over their image, or risk losing it to the public domain, surely they can do that by furnishing a letter of permission that specifically details the extent to which the CVFR can use the logo. By issuing a cease and desist order, they look petty.
    I agree. If anything, a letter of permission should be made available instead of cease and desist being the direction they decide to go. It makes it all seem so political when the end goal is all the same (to remember the lives of those that have served).

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by rwgill View Post
    Most veterans' plates across Canada use the poppy as a symbol but the RCL approval to obtain such a plate is not required in BC, PEI and NWT.
    Legion approves in B.C.

    http://legionbcyukon.org/files/BCYuk...lication_0.pdf

    Copyright infringement is only a problem if it is seen to be a problem by the holder of the Copyright. An example is that most CF Badges are crown copyright. DND will usually only get involved if there is a blatant commercial aspect or the use brings disrepute to the CF.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by GWP View Post
    IAW ICBC, the Legion is a possible part of the application.

    All veterans' plates must be approved by BCVCA. On their application form, the Legion is but one possible route.

    In Ontario, as an example, the RCL is the ONLY authority.

    BTW, the requirements between the two provinces are also quite different. In BC, its MOC qualified plus honourable release. In Ontario, for a Reservist, its minimum 1095 days paid or CD or operational deployment.

    Army Cadet League of Canada Liaison Officer
    57 Vankleek Hill, 2403 Cornwall & 2804 Casselman
    My opinions are my own and may not always reflect the views of the ACLC........sorry

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