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  1. #41
    I'm kind of reviving this topic, but is the idea of not being allowed to cross your arms actually a myth or is it true? Because, a couple of days ago, I saw a LCdr crossing his arms in front of juniors whom I had just told to not cross their arms. Is it allowed?
    Naval Cadet Kelvin Wang
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  2. #42
    sehgal is on a distinguished road sehgal's Avatar
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    It used to be considered a mutiny in the Britsh navy, as one could tuck a knife in one hand and kill the captain. None the less, there is no CATO or any regulation in cadets that the crossing of one's arms is not permitted.
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  3. #43
    quadrapiper is on a distinguished road quadrapiper's Avatar
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    Not too sure of that explanation, though I've heard it before.

    Suspect the origin of "not crossing your arms" as a something one doesn't do is a combination of it being a sign of someone clearly, absolutely not working, and a rather stupid idea in a ship at sea.

  4. #44
    Crossing your arms is not something I've heard about from the RN, so couldn't comment on that.

    I was somewhat confused originally as to what a gunshirt is, I now realise it is what we call a white front.

    The tradition of ironing 7 creases (5 if you were a shortie) comes from the 7 seas. One crease for every sea. This isn't done anymore though, as I'm sure you probably all know.
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  5. #45

    Eek intermediate sail?

    If you didnt go to Basic sail is it possible to get intermediate sail for next year ? because i got basic seamanship and i wanted sail. i know you have to have you WSIII what else?

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by sehgal View Post
    It used to be considered a mutiny in the Britsh navy, as one could tuck a knife in one hand and kill the captain. None the less, there is no CATO or any regulation in cadets that the crossing of one's arms is not permitted.
    Actually Chief, there is a CATO which prohibits the crossing of arms. However, CATOs do not apply to members of the Canadian Forces.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by quadrapiper View Post
    Not too sure of that explanation, though I've heard it before.

    Suspect the origin of "not crossing your arms" as a something one doesn't do is a combination of it being a sign of someone clearly, absolutely not working, and a rather stupid idea in a ship at sea.
    As far as I am aware, the crossing of the arms has to do with sending a message of dissatisfaction, and could be interpreted as a threat of mutiny. Also not the most stable position to be in whilst aboard a ship at sea.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by FireForEffect View Post
    Actually Chief, there is a CATO which prohibits the crossing of arms.
    Which one?

    However, CATOs do not apply to members of the Canadian Forces.
    To make a seemingly meaningless (but not really) statement, they apply to CF members to the extent that they are applicable to CF members. There's not a giant window of applicability, but it is there.

  9. #49
    DA Wright is on a distinguished road DA Wright's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireForEffect View Post
    Actually Chief, there is a CATO which prohibits the crossing of arms. However, CATOs do not apply to members of the Canadian Forces.
    Of course CATOs apply to CF members; they are issued by D Cdts and JCR on the authority of the CDS to supplement QR Cdts and amplify CFAOs/DAODs to detail matters pertaining to administration and training within the CCO. How do they not apply to CF members?

    Granted, many CF members are not impacted within the CATOs scope, but to say they do not apply is akin to saying CF flying orders don't apply to CF members, just to flight crew.
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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by DA Wright View Post
    Of course CATOs apply to CF members; they are issued by D Cdts and JCR on the authority of the CDS to supplement QR Cdts and amplify CFAOs/DAODs to detail matters pertaining to administration and training within the CCO. How do they not apply to CF members?

    Granted, many CF members are not impacted within the CATOs scope, but to say they do not apply is akin to saying CF flying orders don't apply to CF members, just to flight crew.
    Quite right, what I meant was, that CATO doesn't apply. A RegF LCdr (like the one seen by this cadet?) is not affected by CATO 3501B and most of the CF goes on with their lives blissfully ignorant of what a CATO even is. Which is the CATO that most mention when talking about the crossing of arms to be prohibited:

    Behavior such as chewing gum, slouching,
    placing hands in pockets, smoking on the
    street and walking hand in hand, is forbidden
    There was an old PRCI that did expand on that at one time.

  11. #51
    DA Wright is on a distinguished road DA Wright's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireForEffect View Post
    Quite right, what I meant was, that CATO doesn't apply. A RegF LCdr (like the one seen by this cadet?) is not affected by CATO 3501B and most of the CF goes on with their lives blissfully ignorant of what a CATO even is. Which is the CATO that most mention when talking about the crossing of arms to be prohibited
    Fair enough. Though that excerpt from the CATO came from CFP 265 and is often cited in Base/Wing/Unit/Ship standing orders, so while the CATO does not govern the LCdr's conduct, the principle remains applicable.

    I will also point out that crossing one's arms is not inherently rude or innappropriate. If it involves slouching, or leaning, or otherwise construes negative body language it detracts from a positive image and would be wrong; however, leaning forward, arms crossed on a desk listening attentively would not, neither would siting back in a chair listening to a band play. It is the image projected rather than the physical act of which one must be mindful.
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  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastian_Vargas View Post
    If you didnt go to Basic sail is it possible to get intermediate sail for next year ? because i got basic seamanship and i wanted sail. i know you have to have you WSIII what else?
    Yes it is, but may be harder. You do, however require your WSIII to get onto Inter Sail
    SLt Michael Jarosz

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  13. #53
    g.landonbrowne is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by DA Wright View Post
    Fair enough. Though that excerpt from the CATO came from CFP 265 and is often cited in Base/Wing/Unit/Ship standing orders, so while the CATO does not govern the LCdr's conduct, the principle remains applicable.

    I will also point out that crossing one's arms is not inherently rude or innappropriate. If it involves slouching, or leaning, or otherwise construes negative body language it detracts from a positive image and would be wrong; however, leaning forward, arms crossed on a desk listening attentively would not, neither would siting back in a chair listening to a band play. It is the image projected rather than the physical act of which one must be mindful.
    sometimes it is about looking ready to talk though. People often see arms crossed as anti-social. One must always be mindful of the impression they give in and out of uniform. To display subliminally that one is not willing to talk, may in essence be rude.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by DA Wright View Post

    I will also point out that crossing one's arms is not inherently rude or innappropriate.
    I'm presently in Vermont, but when I return I will try and find the reference to the naval reason as to why crossing of ones arms is less acceptable within our service.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by g.landonbrowne View Post
    sometimes it is about looking ready to talk though. People often see arms crossed as anti-social. One must always be mindful of the impression they give in and out of uniform. To display subliminally that one is not willing to talk, may in essence be rude.
    To take this on a bit of a tangent, what's arguably worse about crossing your arms is that it tends to convey insecurity. The corollary is that you look a lot more confident when you don't.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by M Jarosz View Post
    Yes it is, but may be harder. You do, however require your WSIII to get onto Inter Sail
    It should also be noted that there is no requirement to have taken Basic Sail before takig Intermediate Sail outside of the pre-requisite of White Sail III. If you are able to get WSIII through other means, or already have it, take a different Basic level course and then do Intermediate Sail another summer.

    That is the beauty of the new CSTC program that a lot of units miss when giving their briefings - there are no more streams that cadets get locked into any longer. You can take Basic Drill and Ceremonial one summer and move on to take Fitness and Sports Instructor the year after, and if you meet the pre-requisite of sail levels, move on to take Intermediate Sail the year after that. There is a lot of choice available now.

    JB
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  18. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Juice View Post
    It should also be noted that there is no requirement to have taken Basic Sail before takig Intermediate Sail outside of the pre-requisite of White Sail III. If you are able to get WSIII through other means, or already have it, take a different Basic level course and then do Intermediate Sail another summer.

    That is the beauty of the new CSTC program that a lot of units miss when giving their briefings - there are no more streams that cadets get locked into any longer. You can take Basic Drill and Ceremonial one summer and move on to take Fitness and Sports Instructor the year after, and if you meet the pre-requisite of sail levels, move on to take Intermediate Sail the year after that. There is a lot of choice available now.

    JB
    Absolutely, and it definitely is nice, since getting your WSIII is easy to do in the civi world so now cadets don't have to re-do your WSII level.
    SLt Michael Jarosz

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  19. #58
    Teh_Jackson is a glorious beacon of light Teh_Jackson is a glorious beacon of light Teh_Jackson is a glorious beacon of light Teh_Jackson is a glorious beacon of light Teh_Jackson is a glorious beacon of light Teh_Jackson is a glorious beacon of light Teh_Jackson's Avatar
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    I'm curious, whats the verdict on Webbing with work dress. I've seen it at Quadra, but there are a lot of Quadra-isms that are otherwise frowned upon. with the new system, my corps officers are currently tabooing it untill they get a confirmation otherwise.
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  20. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Jackson View Post
    I'm curious, whats the verdict on Webbing with work dress. I've seen it at Quadra, but there are a lot of Quadra-isms that are otherwise frowned upon. with the new system, my corps officers are currently tabooing it untill they get a confirmation otherwise.
    To be honest, I find nothing wrong with it if you're doing something like a parade practice. However, if you're doing something like shears in workdress with webbing, I think it's definitely wrong.

    I do wear workdress with webbing, but my officers are of the same opinion as yours, so I will stop this practice as from what I have seen, we do seem to be incorrect.

  21. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Wang View Post
    To be honest, I find nothing wrong with it if you're doing something like a parade practice. However, if you're doing something like shears in workdress with webbing, I think it's definitely wrong.
    The whole point of webbing was to keep your trouser cuffs out of the way. Of all the things done in a cadet unit, shears (and gyns) would be the ones where I'd see the most need for webbing. Who wants to get caught up in the splay tackle?

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