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  1. #21
    DA Wright is on a distinguished road DA Wright's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilton View Post
    I just think it is weird to hear the commander call right right form then proceed to mark time around the center person. It doesn't look that bad but I think that we should be using proper terminology. Sorry for being dense, but should a flag party just do a normal wheel?
    A Flag Party should do a normal wheel where a wheel is appropriate, the RIGHT/LEFT - FORM vs. CENTRE-WHEEL issue really comes up when the Flag Party needs to move to face the right in preparation to step off for the march past, and to turn to face the advance again following the march past. Marching on/off the flags, I tend to agree with you, why is a centre wheel or form necessary to march into position in line with the unit? A standard wheel then counter march works just as well, and is in keeping with the 201's instruction regarding use of forms and wheels.
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  2. #22
    CWO Russell is on a distinguished road CWO Russell's Avatar
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    I wasn't sure exactly how to handle that on parade with my flag party, so my solution was for them to do a right form at the halt, and than three paces right close. It worked out.
    Andrew Russell
    2945 Royal Canadian Army Cadet Corps
    Former Regimental Sergeant Major/Newfoundland Detatchment Sergeant Major
    lsmrclcme

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by DA Wright View Post
    Marching on/off the flags, I tend to agree with you, why is a centre wheel or form necessary to march into position in line with the unit? A standard wheel then counter march works just as well, and is in keeping with the 201's instruction regarding use of forms and wheels.
    In that particular case, the 201 is quite explicit that marching on/off is to be done by "a series of forms". Except for the part where you about turn, where the diagram shows a spiral counter-march (thankfully now reflected in the "level 3/silver" CPU).

    It's between marching on/off, when not being ordered independently to a flank or during an inspection, where the FP is to "act normally on the parade commander’s command", where the water gets muddied.
    2Lt McInnes, Admin O
    2834 RCACC (Artillery)
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by DA Wright View Post
    You are not completely crazy, the move you are talking about is viewed commonly enough at many units. The trouble with what you are doing is that it is not a CF drill movement that can be identified anywhere in any CF publication. There is no CENTRE - WHEEL command in the 201, and there is no movement described therein that entails changing direction (or travelling at all) whilst marking time.
    With the utmost respect..............

    Centre Wheel itself is not a movement. The movement which is supposed to be done is a Form, yet it is impossible to do correctly......without doing what appears to be a Centre Wheel.

    RMC does it here in training. Very beginning of video.

    IAW the 201, there should be 7 paces between each Pl (10 paces between Coy). The Colour/Flag Party is fit into that space. The Colour/Flag Party's frontage is 3 paces, leaving just 2 paces between the Colour/Flag Party and the Pl (on either side).

    IAW the 201, in order to do a Right/Left Form correctly, the marker makes a complete turn and takes 5 paces. WRT the Colour/Flag Party, it is impossible to do the movement correctly.

    To accomplish the movement correctly, IAW the 201, spacing between units would need to be enlarged to anywhere from 17 to 23 paces, depending upon the march past................this goes against the 201.......and they are no longer dressed off correctly.

  5. #25
    Considering you don't normally put a CP in between platoons (they'd go to the right of the centre formation), 10 paces would be more flexible, (if a bit unorthodox). But don't forget that those 3.5 paces also end up with someone (Coy Cmdr & lead Plt Cmdr or MWO & rear Plt WO, depending on which direction, plus possible supernumerary positions) occupying them, so you have even less space.

    Curses YouTube. Why are you the bane of productivity! I guess I'll wait until I get home to view it.
    2Lt McInnes, Admin O
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  6. #26
    DA Wright is on a distinguished road DA Wright's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rwgill View Post
    With the utmost respect..............

    Centre Wheel itself is not a movement. The movement which is supposed to be done is a Form, yet it is impossible to do correctly......without doing what appears to be a Centre Wheel.
    I entirely agree, and that is the conundrum. The 201 is vague in aspects of CP drill and quite clear in others; unfortunately some of the areas in which it is clear don't work in practice, and have resulted in the diversity of workarounds and modifications that can be observed across CF and CCO units today.

    My take on things - and it is just that, my take - is that one follows the letter of the 201 insofar as practicable. Since the 201 dictates the CP moves into position by use of forms, the command right/left form should be used. Since the spacing of 10 paces does not properly allow a form, the form must be modified to make it work. There are other possibilities to make it work, but this, to me this is the simplest. What I see as 'wrong' is ude of the command centre wheel, which does not exist, and is in contradiction of the direction to move 'by a series of forms.'

    I hope this clarifies any misinterpretation of my post.
    D.A. Wright
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Jabrwock View Post
    Considering you don't normally put a CP in between platoons (they'd go to the right of the centre formation), 10 paces would be more flexible, (if a bit unorthodox). But don't forget that those 3.5 paces also end up with someone (Coy Cmdr & lead Plt Cmdr or MWO & rear Plt WO, depending on which direction, plus possible supernumerary positions) occupying them, so you have even less space.

    Curses YouTube. Why are you the bane of productivity! I guess I'll wait until I get home to view it.
    Short story - there is no space to do it.

    Search "Colour Party" on YouTube. Quite a bit comes up from RMC.

    Quote Originally Posted by DA Wright View Post
    I entirely agree, and that is the conundrum. The 201 is vague in aspects of CP drill and quite clear in others; unfortunately some of the areas in which it is clear don't work in practice, and have resulted in the diversity of workarounds and modifications that can be observed across CF and CCO units today.

    My take on things - and it is just that, my take - is that one follows the letter of the 201 insofar as practicable. Since the 201 dictates the CP moves into position by use of forms, the command right/left form should be used. Since the spacing of 10 paces does not properly allow a form, the form must be modified to make it work. There are other possibilities to make it work, but this, to me this is the simplest. What I see as 'wrong' is ude of the command centre wheel, which does not exist, and is in contradiction of the direction to move 'by a series of forms.'

    I hope this clarifies any misinterpretation of my post.
    Which is why my favorite paragraph is this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Chapter 1, para 1
    1. This publication provides guidance and
    establishes uniformity for drill and ceremonial
    throughout the Canadian Forces (CF).

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by rwgill View Post
    Search "Colour Party" on YouTube. Quite a bit comes up from RMC.
    What's the bit where the colour officers step out ahead of the party? ( Colour party - 3 sqn #1 I think) I've never seen that before...
    2Lt McInnes, Admin O
    2834 RCACC (Artillery)
    Yorkton, SK, Canada

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Jabrwock View Post
    What's the bit where the colour officers step out ahead of the party? ( Colour party - 3 sqn #1 I think) I've never seen that before...
    There are a bunch of "what the...?" moments in those three videos. The stepping out thing definitely jumped out at me as well as this slo-mo running the hand down the Colours to smooth them. When they did it during the uncasing of the Colours (and I want to get our FP to start doing casing and uncasing) that's fine. The 201 says that the Colour Officers (with the assistance of the Colour Orderlies if required) "dress the Colours to ensure that they are evenly distributed on both sides of the pike". The slow-motion movement is not my cup of tea but nothing in the 201 says you can't do it that way.

    Dressing the Colours after falling in, however, is not mentioned anywhere in the 201 and I'd go as far as to say it shouldn't be done.

    Staying with the uncasing for a moment longer, I hope everyone notes that the Colours were not rolled up around the pike. The actual procedure is:

    The Colour officers, with the left hand, and
    the orderlies, with the right hand, grasp the bottom
    corner of the Colour nearest to them and together
    fold the bottom edge of the Colour over the pike,
    ensuring that the fringe also hangs over the pike. The
    above procedure is executed three times, ensuring
    that there are no creases and that the Colours are
    neatly rolled along the top of the pike. As the Colour
    is folded, successive folds are held in place by the
    right thumb of the Colour officer and the left thumb of
    the orderly. The orderlies then wrap the tasselled
    cords around the Colours three times along their
    width. The Colour officers grasp the ends of the
    cords and the Colour in their left hand.
    Which allows that nice snappy unfurling once the cord is unwrapped during the uncasing.

    The Colour officers stepping out like that is WAY odd. Not the dressing off the front and rear ranks - the 201 does say:

    "Two Colours. The Colour officers and Colour warrant officer are positioned in line with the front rank and the sergeants in line with the rear rank."

    But leaving the cadet that's filling the Colour WO spot back like that (essentially forming 3 ranks) is not something I've seen in the 201, CAP 90 (RCAF drill manual) or even the 1801, 1810 and 1830 British Army drill manuals (when they actually still carried Colours into battle!)

    The countermarch is similarly odd in only one respect: the turning about while marching time that the "centreman" does. Granted the 201 is known to be ambiguous about that but, as far a cadets emulating the video because of its pedigree (being RMC and all), that's not how that person would move during a spiral countermarch.

    And that centre wheel...
    gliderwingsJ-P Johnson cd1
    Barrie Ontario
    The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by J-P Johnson View Post
    Dressing the Colours after falling in, however, is not mentioned anywhere in the 201 and I'd go as far as to say it shouldn't be done.
    ...
    The Colour officers stepping out like that is WAY odd. Not the dressing off the front and rear ranks - the 201 does say:

    "Two Colours. The Colour officers and Colour warrant officer are positioned in line with the front rank and the sergeants in line with the rear rank."
    I'm confused how they get into that position. There is one pace between front and centre rank (and between the colours and the rear escorts), yet the rear escorts are to be in line with the rear rank, which is two paces back from the front rank. So do the rear escorts move back when the open order march is called?

    Staying with the uncasing for a moment longer, I hope everyone notes that the Colours were not rolled up around the pike. The actual procedure is:
    Good to know. I wanted to do casing/uncasing this year as well.
    2Lt McInnes, Admin O
    2834 RCACC (Artillery)
    Yorkton, SK, Canada

  11. #31
    DA Wright is on a distinguished road DA Wright's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabrwock View Post
    I'm confused how they get into that position. There is one pace between front and centre rank (and between the colours and the rear escorts), yet the rear escorts are to be in line with the rear rank, which is two paces back from the front rank. So do the rear escorts move back when the open order march is called?
    For the inspection or for Review Order? In review order, the flag party is marched forward to be in line with the Pl Comds (often overlooked in our org). For the inspection, I note nothing in the 201, but I have seen the CP stand fast, or the CP advance three paces so the flags stay in line with the front rank (I have never seen the spacing changed between the flags and the escorts during an open order).
    D.A. Wright
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by J-P Johnson View Post
    ***post***
    I thought that you would like that

    Looking at it and the other videos, they all appear to be from some sort of Colour/Flag Party competition or evaluation. Some sequences are slightly different, depending on the Sqn.

    There are some oddities, that is for sure.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by DA Wright View Post
    For the inspection or for Review Order? In review order, the flag party is marched forward to be in line with the Pl Comds (often overlooked in our org). For the inspection, I note nothing in the 201, but I have seen the CP stand fast, or the CP advance three paces so the flags stay in line with the front rank (I have never seen the spacing changed between the flags and the escorts during an open order).
    For the inspection. The 201 just states how the FP lines up with a battalion in line. I would assume that would apply whether or not they are at the open order. Like the moving to the right for a marchpast, it's one of those "describe point A, assume undefined movement B, describe point C."

    Along with casing/uncasing, I'd like to start our FP "taking post" for review order.

    AHA! I wonder if that's what they are doing when the flags move forward a few paces and leave the escorts behind. Could they be taking post in review order for a battalion in line... and need to move forward 3 paces to be in line with the platoon commanders?

    Non-commissioned officers, including Colour
    escorts, stand fast and do not change their positions
    when the battalion adopts review order.
    Although... it doesn't list a command to prep the FP for review when in line. There's a take post command for column, close column, or mass, but not for line, it just expects you to either march them on directly into review order (after the inspection/marchpast???), or it just assumes they get moved, somehow.
    Last edited by Jabrwock; 30th September 2010 at 12:39.
    2Lt McInnes, Admin O
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  14. #34

    Flags

    So..

    we let fly during:
    March Past and General Salute? I never knew about General Salute.. :P
    Any other situations?




    AND A BIG THING THAT BOTHERS ME BUT I CANNOT FIND IN THE 201..

    does the commander salute during the march past? How about the guards?
    I have heard things about the RO saluting the Canadian. Others say the Commander and guards still have to salute him/her.
    D. Lee
    Sergeant
    Flag Party Commander
    888 Avenger RCACS
    canada "Success is the only answer" bc

  15. #35
    You would also let fly during eyes right.

    As for the specifics of the eyes right, I can't really help you there, because I don't want to say something incorect without having the 201.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by DLee View Post
    So..

    we let fly during:
    March Past and General Salute? I never knew about General Salute.. :P
    Any other situations?




    AND A BIG THING THAT BOTHERS ME BUT I CANNOT FIND IN THE 201..

    does the commander salute during the march past? How about the guards?
    I have heard things about the RO saluting the Canadian. Others say the Commander and guards still have to salute him/her.
    The escorts do not salute. It is the same as if they were in a flight.

    The commander can't salute because they are carrying a flag. If you take a look at the 201 again, you will see that the commander is the person carrying the senior flag. The "centreman" in a 5 person flag party is an escort, not the commander. It's the commander who gives the commands too.
    gliderwingsJ-P Johnson cd1
    Barrie Ontario
    The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by J-P Johnson View Post
    The commander can't salute because they are carrying a flag. If you take a look at the 201 again, you will see that the commander is the person carrying the senior flag. The "centreman" in a 5 person flag party is an escort, not the commander. It's the commander who gives the commands too.
    Thank you. I gather from this that no one salutes because the RO is really saluting the Canadian flag and, being either the guards of the Canadian or a flag bearer that cannot salute, no one in the flag party will bring up a salute to the RO. Correct?

    Thanks for the prompt replies by the way. Props to you and Chief Wang.
    D. Lee
    Sergeant
    Flag Party Commander
    888 Avenger RCACS
    canada "Success is the only answer" bc

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Wang View Post
    You would also let fly during eyes right.

    As for the specifics of the eyes right, I can't really help you there, because I don't want to say something incorect without having the 201.
    While I don;t have my 201 with me, I do know from looking into this during the summer, you can let fly whenever you want to allow for identification of the flag. So while there are guidelines for appropriate times, there is a provision for a Flag Party to let fly for the entire parade if they choose to.


    EDIT: Found it.

    5. Let Fly the Colours. Releasing the Colours
    to fly free, either as a salute to dignitaries not entitled
    to the Royal Salute as detailed in A-AD-200-000/
    AG-000, Honours, Flags and Heritage Structure of
    the CF, or to allow free identification of the flag
    JB
    Last edited by Juice; 12th December 2011 at 05:57.
    Run until you can't. Then run some more

  19. #39
    HailLaure is on a distinguished road
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    Help

    Quote Originally Posted by deBoerBOT View Post
    Hey, a couple disputes because my CO wants everything word for word by the book (err, I mean 201) for an upcoming visit from the inspecting officer...

    Duspute no 1

    In the 201, it depicts letting fly the flags during a march past

    "During the march past in quick time, on the
    command EYES – RIGHT, the Colour is let fly on the
    next left foot."


    It also states in one of the first paragraphs of chapter 8

    "5. Let Fly the Colours. Releasing the Colours
    to fly free, either as a salute to dignitaries not entitled
    to the Royal Salute as detailed in A-AD-200-000/
    AG-000, Honours, Flags and Heritage Structure of
    the CF, or to allow free identification of the flag."


    some in my Sqn have neglected the rules of letting fly the flags in the past and state it is not necessary (and only necessary during general salute). Is it "officially" correct to let fly the flags during a march past?

    What does Releasing the Colours to fly free... ...to allow free identification of the flag. mean in regards to letting it fly anytime when not halted in position on parade square.

    Also, if you know, what are the other times we let fly the flags (other then the general salute)?

    Dispute no 2

    Does anyone know what document (or if its in the 201, then where?) is current for Rifle Drill (not C7/C8 drill). There are some complicated disputes within this, its a little too hard to explain.

    Hey um, where do u find the 201 and drill manual and all that jazz cuz I need timings and such for flag party.

  20. #40
    T.Rhynold is on a distinguished road T.Rhynold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HailLaure View Post
    Hey um, where do u find the 201 and drill manual and all that jazz cuz I need timings and such for flag party.
    I have them send I'll PM you my e-mail address just send me an e-mail so I can reply.
    FSgt Thomas Kavanuagh-Rhynold
    Avenger Flight Commander
    507 F/L McLean Squadron
    gliderwings

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