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  1. #1
    Rest In Peace deBoerBOT is on a distinguished road deBoerBOT's Avatar
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    Question Flag Party 201 disputes

    Hey, a couple disputes because my CO wants everything word for word by the book (err, I mean 201) for an upcoming visit from the inspecting officer...

    Duspute no 1

    In the 201, it depicts letting fly the flags during a march past

    "During the march past in quick time, on the
    command EYES – RIGHT, the Colour is let fly on the
    next left foot."


    It also states in one of the first paragraphs of chapter 8

    "5. Let Fly the Colours. Releasing the Colours
    to fly free, either as a salute to dignitaries not entitled
    to the Royal Salute as detailed in A-AD-200-000/
    AG-000, Honours, Flags and Heritage Structure of
    the CF, or to allow free identification of the flag."


    some in my Sqn have neglected the rules of letting fly the flags in the past and state it is not necessary (and only necessary during general salute). Is it "officially" correct to let fly the flags during a march past?

    What does Releasing the Colours to fly free... ...to allow free identification of the flag. mean in regards to letting it fly anytime when not halted in position on parade square.

    Also, if you know, what are the other times we let fly the flags (other then the general salute)?

    Dispute no 2

    Does anyone know what document (or if its in the 201, then where?) is current for Rifle Drill (not C7/C8 drill). There are some complicated disputes within this, its a little too hard to explain.

  2. #2
    http://www.cadets.ca/content-contenu.aspx?id=64296

    this is the seacadet drill and cerimonial manual in chapter two section one it has rifle drill there it is the same drill movments as the other elements. the flag drill im not sure about that maby u can do some research in the same area on that
    malm CPO2 Formosa malm
    bosn Chief Boatswains Mate bosn
    64 RCSCC Malaspina Powell River
    beat to quarters
    scsmrclcme

  3. #3
    SaulT is on a distinguished road SaulT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deBoerBOT View Post
    Hey, a couple disputes because my CO wants everything word for word by the book (err, I mean 201) for an upcoming visit from the inspecting officer...

    Duspute no 1

    In the 201, it depicts letting fly the flags during a march past

    "During the march past in quick time, on the
    command EYES – RIGHT, the Colour is let fly on the
    next left foot."


    It also states in one of the first paragraphs of chapter 8

    "5. Let Fly the Colours. Releasing the Colours
    to fly free, either as a salute to dignitaries not entitled
    to the Royal Salute as detailed in A-AD-200-000/
    AG-000, Honours, Flags and Heritage Structure of
    the CF, or to allow free identification of the flag."


    some in my Sqn have neglected the rules of letting fly the flags in the past and state it is not necessary (and only necessary during general salute). Is it "officially" correct to let fly the flags during a march past?

    What does Releasing the Colours to fly free... ...to allow free identification of the flag. mean in regards to letting it fly anytime when not halted in position on parade square.

    Also, if you know, what are the other times we let fly the flags (other then the general salute)?

    Dispute no 2

    Does anyone know what document (or if its in the 201, then where?) is current for Rifle Drill (not C7/C8 drill). There are some complicated disputes within this, its a little too hard to explain.
    There are many Flag Party discussions already open in the Music Company & Parade Square forum.

    Since Lee Enfield rifle drill is no longer used in the CF, your best resource is the Sea Cadet Manual of Drill which includes Lee Enfield rifle drill.
    Theo Saul lsm armycsm
    Cadet Warrant Officer (Ret'd)
    Former-Company Sergeant Major of 2947 12 (Vancouver) Service Battalion RCACC

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by SaulT View Post
    Since Lee Enfield rifle drill is no longer used in the CF, your best resource is the Sea Cadet Manual of Drill which includes Lee Enfield rifle drill.
    already links him:P
    malm CPO2 Formosa malm
    bosn Chief Boatswains Mate bosn
    64 RCSCC Malaspina Powell River
    beat to quarters
    scsmrclcme

  5. #5
    Rest In Peace deBoerBOT is on a distinguished road deBoerBOT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Formosa View Post
    http://www.cadets.ca/content-contenu.aspx?id=64296

    this is the seacadet drill and cerimonial manual in chapter two section one it has rifle drill there it is the same drill movments as the other elements. the flag drill im not sure about that maby u can do some research in the same area on that
    Ah, this is perfect. It will surely fix up the rifle related issues. Thanks

    But, i scanned through the Music and Parade Square forums and there doesn't seem to be any answers for my flag issues.

    Anyone got anything else?

  6. #6
    Does it say to let the flags fly on an eyes right? If it does, then you let them fly during an eyes right.

    I'm not entirely up on Flag Drill enough to tell you without looking directly at the reference, but I can tell you that the only place where you will find flag drill is in the CFP-201. There is no other drill manual out there that covers it, because it would be the same. Just replace the word "colour" with "flag" when calling commands.

    As for rifle drill, Mr. Formosa and Mr. Saul are correct. The Cea Cadet Manual of Drill and Ceremonial is the standard for all three elements for rifle drill. Any movement that is done that is not contained within that manual, we turn to the 201 for the answer.

    JB
    Run until you can't. Then run some more

  7. #7
    The only disputed drill for flag party I know of are moving to the right for a march past (I've been told even by CF Majors to use "counter march", the manual says "use a series of forms"), and using the spiral counter march to do an about turn (shown in the 201's picture, but described in the 202 Band Drill manual).
    2Lt McInnes, Admin O
    2834 RCACC (Artillery)
    Yorkton, SK, Canada

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Jabrwock View Post
    The only disputed drill for flag party I know of are moving to the right for a march past (I've been told even by CF Majors to use "counter march", the manual says "use a series of forms"), and using the spiral counter march to do an about turn (shown in the 201's picture, but described in the 202 Band Drill manual).
    As of the release of the CPU, one of those disputes has been resolved for cadet corps and squadrons and that's the countermarch. Yes, it's in the 202 and not the 201 but the high-stepping around that cadets have been doing isn't in any drill manual at all! DCadets has spoken so, as far as I'm concerned, we now have a standard to follow.

    As for the forms before and after the marchpast, that's a dog's breakfast from the word "go" - moreso for the turning back into line than into column of route. I'd love to find out how they arrived at the spacing between platoons/companies for the Colour Party and why they believe forms will actually work. Obviously this was worked out on paper and not tested on an actual parade before being printed in the 201.
    gliderwingsJ-P Johnson cd1
    Barrie Ontario
    The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by J-P Johnson View Post
    As for the forms before and after the marchpast, that's a dog's breakfast from the word "go" - moreso for the turning back into line than into column of route. I'd love to find out how they arrived at the spacing between platoons/companies for the Colour Party and why they believe forms will actually work. Obviously this was worked out on paper and not tested on an actual parade before being printed in the 201.
    While I recognise the Hasty Generalisation fallacy in this statement, given that everyone uses a left/right centre wheel for that it's probably safe to continue doing so.

    The frustration I have with this comes from the lack of paper description as to how it is correctly performed.
    Capt Ken Logan
    CO 2289 5th (BC) Field Artillery Regiment RCACC
    Former:
    C/MWO lsmrclcmearmycsm2
    CSM 2136 The Canadian Scottish Regiment (Princess Mary's) RCACC

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Logan View Post
    While I recognise the Hasty Generalisation fallacy in this statement, given that everyone uses a left/right centre wheel for that it's probably safe to continue doing so.

    The frustration I have with this comes from the lack of paper description as to how it is correctly performed.
    Not everyone does use "centre wheels". I have seen some funky stuff out there. For us, we do forms but with the members stepping super short. It actually can work if you adjust the position of the flag party before, during and after the marchpast. And when i say adjusting, I don't mean anything that conflicts with either the spirit or letter of the 201.

    Unfortunately, I can't explain what I mean properly - it's something I'd have to show you. Maybe I'll do a video at some point...
    gliderwingsJ-P Johnson cd1
    Barrie Ontario
    The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.

  11. #11
    DA Wright is on a distinguished road DA Wright's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-P Johnson View Post
    Not everyone does use "centre wheels".
    I'm pleased to say you are right. Centre wheels and 'pin wheels' were the norm when I was a cadet. In the past 5 years, I've seen many units switching to forms. While only a few are actually doing a 'form' iaw the 201, at least using the command left/right form is a start. With the CPU and formal instruction of flag party drill on the BL and LCI courses, we have a great opportunity to properly instruct these topics, and instigate the overdue changes at the units.
    D.A. Wright
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    RCSU Central
    Do, or do not, there is no try -Yoda

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by J-P Johnson View Post
    As of the release of the CPU, one of those disputes has been resolved for cadet corps and squadrons and that's the countermarch. Yes, it's in the 202 and not the 201 but the high-stepping around that cadets have been doing isn't in any drill manual at all!
    I've been correcting my FP constantly about that one. Step short, not up.

    Quote Originally Posted by J-P Johnson View Post
    Not everyone does use "centre wheels". I have seen some funky stuff out there. For us, we do forms but with the members stepping super short. It actually can work if you adjust the position of the flag party before, during and after the marchpast. And when i say adjusting, I don't mean anything that conflicts with either the spirit or letter of the 201.

    Unfortunately, I can't explain what I mean properly - it's something I'd have to show you. Maybe I'll do a video at some point...
    A diagram maybe? Last time I demonstrated platoon drill and didn't have enough cadets, we used magnets on a white-erase board to show them the movements, and then practiced it on a smaller scale.
    2Lt McInnes, Admin O
    2834 RCACC (Artillery)
    Yorkton, SK, Canada

  13. #13

    :shrug: Forms, Counter marches

    My squadron flag party does what they call a "form" but is what I would call a center wheel. We have it done as marking time, and going forward after a certain number of steps. Is there a reason to call them forms or are we completely crazy? Thanks!
    204 rocks!

  14. #14

    Forms, Counter marches, center wheels

    My squadron flag party does what they call a "form" but is what I would call a center wheel. We have it done as marking time, and going forward after a certain number of steps without a forward command. Is there a reason to call them forms or are we completely crazy? Thanks!
    204 rocks!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Hilton View Post
    My squadron flag party does what they call a "form" but is what I would call a center wheel. We have it done as marking time, and going forward after a certain number of steps without a forward command. Is there a reason to call them forms or are we completely crazy? Thanks!
    You might be calling what you are doing "forms" but that is not at all what you are actually doing. Look up "Change Direction" and "Form Squad" in the CFP-201 and you will see what is supposed to be happening.

    JB
    Run until you can't. Then run some more

  16. #16
    I haven't looked at what the new courses say, but has anyone looked at them enough to say that it would work? If so, why don't corps / squadrons just take the information from the new courses and use that at the home unit?
    R Molitor
    Lt (N)
    "Leadership is not making decisions; anyone can do that. It is also not standing behind decisions; again, an easy thing to do. True leadership is admitting when you're wrong."

  17. #17

    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Juice View Post
    You might be calling what you are doing "forms" but that is not at all what you are actually doing. Look up "Change Direction" and "Form Squad" in the CFP-201 and you will see what is supposed to be happening.

    JB
    It is just that at summer camp they did a form on the march the way I thought it was which is to have the one marker turn on the march and the rest of the front rank do an incline. When are these to be done with the flag party?
    Would it be safe to say that my flag party should be doing center wheels without marking time? This is my last night of cadets so maybe I can change something before I go
    204 rocks!

  18. #18
    DA Wright is on a distinguished road DA Wright's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilton View Post
    My squadron flag party does what they call a "form" but is what I would call a center wheel. We have it done as marking time, and going forward after a certain number of steps. Is there a reason to call them forms or are we completely crazy? Thanks!
    You are not completely crazy, the move you are talking about is viewed commonly enough at many units. The trouble with what you are doing is that it is not a CF drill movement that can be identified anywhere in any CF publication. There is no CENTRE - WHEEL command in the 201, and there is no movement described therein that entails changing direction (or travelling at all) whilst marking time.

    The second problem with what you are doing, is that the 201 clearly states that colour parties manoeuvre into position by a series of wheels and forms. Both these movements are clearly explained in the 201, so why not use them properly, rather than some made up invention?
    D.A. Wright
    Maj
    Plans O
    RCSU Central
    Do, or do not, there is no try -Yoda

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Hilton View Post
    It is just that at summer camp they did a form on the march the way I thought it was which is to have the one marker turn on the march and the rest of the front rank do an incline. When are these to be done with the flag party?
    You use them in place of a right/left wheel when marching the flag on/off, and when "moving to a flank independently".

    I've explained many times in the past my problems with using the form to prep for a march past. Stepping VERY short and covering over are the only (proper) modifications I can think of to accommodate both the lack of space (10 paces between the two formations the FP sits between), and the need to get "back into line" with the rest of the formation (since after a form your FP's right file would be in line with the rest of the formation's left file).

    right_form.png

    I've even asked a PRes Major, in charge of his regiment's colour party, and his advice was to call "counter-march" and do a "centre-wheel" (mark time while wheeling and covering). He said that's how it's always been done, he's never seen anything that clarifies how you're supposed to do it "properly" under the given conditions, in one command.

    I've heard plenty of "just use a form" comments, can anyone describe how they accommodate the issues above? Stepping short? Covering while marching through the form? Paces backward, and right/left close march after forming? Wait until the column steps off before covering?

    The 201 has plenty of detail on how FPs should behave during reviews, inspections, and marching on/off. The problem I describe above is the only one that isn't covered in some form.
    2Lt McInnes, Admin O
    2834 RCACC (Artillery)
    Yorkton, SK, Canada

  20. #20
    I just think it is weird to hear the commander call right right form then proceed to mark time around the center person. It doesn't look that bad but I think that we should be using proper terminology. Sorry for being dense, but should a flag party just do a normal wheel?
    204 rocks!

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