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  1. #21
    CWO Russell is on a distinguished road CWO Russell's Avatar
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    "2. Officers cannot delegate their parade duties to NCOs..."

    This is something that I've been wondering for the longest time. Dosen't the idea of having Cadets fill "officer" parade positions act in direct contradiction of this excerpt from the 201? =/


    And as for the whole "Coming to attention at the edge of the parade square" thing. Well, I simply looking at it as adopting the position of attention before going into a quick march. This isn't really any inconvenience because the edge of our parade groud is rather wide and marked by two pillars.
    Andrew Russell
    2945 Royal Canadian Army Cadet Corps
    Former Regimental Sergeant Major/Newfoundland Detatchment Sergeant Major
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by WO. Russell View Post
    "2. Officers cannot delegate their parade duties to NCOs..."

    This is something that I've been wondering for the longest time. Dosen't the idea of having Cadets fill "officer" parade positions act in direct contradiction of this excerpt from the 201? =/
    Depends on your perspective. In one sense, you are correct and it would clear up SO many issues vis a vis sqn appointments vs parade appointments.

    On the other, cadets aren't NCOs in the CF. Having them fill cadet parade positions on a cadet parade, it could be argued, isn't delegating parade duties at all.
    And as for the whole "Coming to attention at the edge of the parade square" thing. Well, I simply looking at it as adopting the position of attention before going into a quick march. This isn't really any inconvenience because the edge of our parade groud is rather wide and marked by two pillars.
    That's as may be but I consider going from a relaxed walk to a march already covered in the 201:

    Technically, there isn't supposed to be any transition at all. You march to the parade square as well as on it.

    But consider this:
    21. The quick march is performed in a brisk and
    forceful manner. It may be desirable when marching
    long distances out of the general public eye to permit
    the troops to relax. If so, the commander may order
    MARCH AT – EASE. The cadence and pace length
    remain unchanged, but the troops may otherwise
    relax. The command to return to normal marching
    style is MARCH AT ATTEN – TION. Commanders
    shall not permit troops to march at ease in public
    parades, ceremonies or when entering or leaving
    barracks.
    So, if you are going to allow a relaxed pace off the parade square, it's, to my mind, marching at-ease. The people are just going from that to marching at attention which does not include a halt.
    gliderwingsJ-P Johnson cd1
    Barrie Ontario
    The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by WO. Russell View Post
    And as for the whole "Coming to attention at the edge of the parade square" thing. Well, I simply looking at it as adopting the position of attention before going into a quick march. This isn't really any inconvenience because the edge of our parade groud is rather wide and marked by two pillars.
    I seem to have no problem going from marching to walking and reverse when leaving and entering the main deck at our building. There is one exception however. When coming across the brow our building onto or off of the main deck all pers halt and salute (much as one would do when entering and leaving a ship).
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by TLOD View Post
    I seem to have no problem going from marching to walking and reverse when leaving and entering the main deck at our building. There is one exception however. When coming across the brow our building onto or off of the main deck all pers halt and salute (much as one would do when entering and leaving a ship).

    Would one have to stop and salute if there is a picture of the queen above the parade square. Up until last year we had a picture of the queen above the parade square so some of the seniors still do it.

    One of our Volunteers (former reg force) asked me that question (since we are army) and that was the answer I gave him, but it was what I was told as a cadet. We also saulted after every dismissal because of the picture (No longer done unless an officer is upstairs.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by colgate View Post
    Would one have to stop and salute if there is a picture of the queen above the parade square. Up until last year we had a picture of the queen above the parade square so some of the seniors still do it.

    One of our Volunteers (former reg force) asked me that question (since we are army) and that was the answer I gave him, but it was what I was told as a cadet. We also saulted after every dismissal because of the picture (No longer done unless an officer is upstairs.
    I'm not aware of any provision in the drill manual or elsewhere that requires saluting a picture.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by colgate View Post
    Would one have to stop and salute if there is a picture of the queen above the parade square. Up until last year we had a picture of the queen above the parade square so some of the seniors still do it.
    No. There is no land/air equivalent to the naval "boarding/leaving a ship/mounting the quarter deck". Even entering an office, you salute the officer in charge of that office, not the Queen's picture on the wall.

    One of our Volunteers (former reg force) asked me that question (since we are army) and that was the answer I gave him, but it was what I was told as a cadet. We also saulted after every dismissal because of the picture (No longer done unless an officer is upstairs.
    You should only salute if there are officers "on parade". Hence why the dismissal is sometimes (and I realize this isn't in the 201) preceded by "OFFICERS ON PARADE", to remind the parade if it's not obvious.
    2Lt McInnes, Admin O
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Jabrwock View Post
    No. There is no land/air equivalent to the naval "boarding/leaving a ship/mounting the quarter deck". Even entering an office, you salute the officer in charge of that office, not the Queen's picture on the wall.

    You should only salute if there are officers "on parade". Hence why the dismissal is sometimes (and I realize this isn't in the 201) preceded by "OFFICERS ON PARADE", to remind the parade if it's not obvious.
    However, it must be stressed that that means that officers are actually on parade, not just standing off to the side of the parade square or something. Since, using zoomie terminology, the squadron is dismissed by the SWO (parade appoinment) after the officers have been dismissed and the DComd and Comd have left, there is no salute upon dismissal.

    The whole saluting the Queen's picture thing... If that was the case then you'd have to salute the change in your pocket too.
    gliderwingsJ-P Johnson cd1
    Barrie Ontario
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  9. #28
    CW Member of the Year - 2009 Andy is on a distinguished road Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-P Johnson View Post
    Has a first-year cadet actually ever asked that question or is that a solution in search of a problem?
    I recall hearing it at least once during my cadet years. Don't recall the details, but it's definitely come up before.

    Quote Originally Posted by J-P Johnson
    The second the first foot hits the parade square, you are marching. The second your last foot is off the parade square when leaving, you're not. It is not unlike the transition from quick march to march at-ease and back.
    Typical, perhaps but would it be correct for them to do so? As those who are filling "officer" appointments, they are supposed to be promenading until they are needed. Again, the transition from promenading to quick march is not unlike the transition from marching at-ease to marching at attention. If your corps or sqn doesn't have the Comd and DComd promenading, they should be standing at ease at the edge of the parade ground. They come to attention before they step off. They don't interrupt their progress by halting in the middle of their journey.

    Let me tell you what the practical or, rather, impractical upshot of this practice is. There is a squadron I've seen that parades nearly 200 cadets that uses a triple-gym as their parade square. There is one entrance they use and every single one of them halts at the doorway going on and going off. Do you have any idea how much time that wastes?
    I'm not arguing that it's a good (much less correct) practice. I'm just throwing out a suggestion that may explain why it even got the way it did.
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  10. #29
    CWO Russell is on a distinguished road CWO Russell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colgate View Post
    Would one have to stop and salute if there is a picture of the queen above the parade square. Up until last year we had a picture of the queen above the parade square so some of the seniors still do it.

    One of our Volunteers (former reg force) asked me that question (since we are army) and that was the answer I gave him, but it was what I was told as a cadet. We also saulted after every dismissal because of the picture (No longer done unless an officer is upstairs.
    "3. In Canada, military compliments are only paid
    to the Sovereign; the Governor General; members of
    the Royal Family; recognized foreign royalty; foreign
    heads of state or government; the Prime Minister; the
    Minister and Associate Minister of National Defence;
    lieutenant-governors; and commissioned officers.
    Exceptions, such as compliments paid to deceased
    service members, are as detailed in paragraphs 20 to
    23 and paragraphs 25, 26, 28, 29 et 41."


    Sooo. You are expected to pay compliments to anything included on this list, which includes the queen herself but not the queens image.
    Andrew Russell
    2945 Royal Canadian Army Cadet Corps
    Former Regimental Sergeant Major/Newfoundland Detatchment Sergeant Major
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  11. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by J-P Johnson View Post
    However, it must be stressed that that means that officers are actually on parade, not just standing off to the side of the parade square or something.
    On CO's parade our officers line up beside the parade square, and then prior to dismissal the CO stands in front of us, so when the RSM dismisses the cadets they end up facing her when they salute... I'm going to go out on a limb and call that... non-standard... Although she doesn't actually leave the parade square... Hmmmmm. The rest of us are definitely not on the PS...

    The whole saluting the Queen's picture thing... If that was the case then you'd have to salute the change in your pocket too.
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  12. #31
    SaulT is on a distinguished road SaulT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WO. Russell View Post
    "3. In Canada, military compliments are only paid
    to the Sovereign; the Governor General; members of
    the Royal Family; recognized foreign royalty; foreign
    heads of state or government; the Prime Minister; the
    Minister and Associate Minister of National Defence;
    lieutenant-governors; and commissioned officers.
    Exceptions, such as compliments paid to deceased
    service members, are as detailed in paragraphs 20 to
    23 and paragraphs 25, 26, 28, 29 et 41."


    Sooo. You are expected to pay compliments to anything included on this list, which includes the queen herself but not the queens image.
    Okay.

    Because when the PM went to China, I saw on the news that when he got off this Canadian Forces aircraft, he was saluted by the air force officer as he exited. I just never knew that officially until now. Hahaha

    I noticed that some cadets salute Army Cadet League officials, Veterans..and Retired officers (eg, Capt (Ret'd) Insert Name Here)...are we actually supposed to salute these individuals? because according to the list above...apparently not...
    Theo Saul lsm armycsm
    Cadet Warrant Officer (Ret'd)
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  13. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by SaulT View Post
    I noticed that some cadets salute Army Cadet League officials, Veterans..and Retired officers (eg, Capt (Ret'd) Insert Name Here)...are we actually supposed to salute these individuals? because according to the list above...apparently not...
    Courtesy salutes may be given to civilians.
    CFP 201 CHAPTER 1 SECTION 2 COMPLIMENTS
    25. Courtesy Salutes
    b. Service members may express their respect for individual civilians by using a salute as a formal means of greeting or farewell.
    The new CPU however, stresses to cadets that only commissioned officers are saluted (in terms of individuals anyway), muddying the waters a bit, especially when the cadets then see things like the PM getting saluted.
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  14. #33
    quadrapiper is on a distinguished road quadrapiper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabrwock View Post
    Courtesy salutes may be given to civilians.The new CPU however, stresses to cadets that only commissioned officers are saluted (in terms of individuals anyway), muddying the waters a bit, especially when the cadets then see things like the PM getting saluted.
    For cadet purposes the only time a (non-uniformed) civilian should generally get a salute is when they are acting as a Reviewing Officer.

    In the case of uniformed civvies acting as ROs, (police, CCG, and so on), salute those that are officers in their own organization: Sgt Bloggins of the RCMP doesn't get a salute, but Inspector Smith does.

    Anybody have a clear version of what politicians are actually entitled to, beyond the courtesy salute attached to being an RO? Does the PM rate one? Minister of Defence? Cabinet ministers in general?

    Any League personnel do not otherwise rate a salute. This includes Navy League Cadet Corps officers, unless you feel like giving one as a courtesy.

    As to the "saluting veterans" thing, I'd say... if you're reporting to one on a formal occasion.

  15. #34
    That's a good point with ministers, especially with Minster/Pte MacKay
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  16. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by quadrapiper View Post
    For cadet purposes the only time a (non-uniformed) civilian should generally get a salute is when they are acting as a Reviewing Officer.

    In the case of uniformed civvies acting as ROs, (police, CCG, and so on), salute those that are officers in their own organization: Sgt Bloggins of the RCMP doesn't get a salute, but Inspector Smith does.

    Anybody have a clear version of what politicians are actually entitled to, beyond the courtesy salute attached to being an RO? Does the PM rate one? Minister of Defence? Cabinet ministers in general?

    Any League personnel do not otherwise rate a salute. This includes Navy League Cadet Corps officers, unless you feel like giving one as a courtesy.

    As to the "saluting veterans" thing, I'd say... if you're reporting to one on a formal occasion.
    But, of course, that is your personal opinion. I think the discussion should be based on what the 201 and service custom allows or dictates.

    There are those who MUST be saluted (and the 201 gives a list), those who must NOT be saluted (ie living, breathing OCdts and NCMs to name but a two), and basically everyone else who MAY be saluted as a courtesy.

    Now, for consistency, there could be local or regional directives that could very well resemble your list but I wouldn't present it as a fact. For example, CentReg has flipped back and forth over the years where cadets were (or were not) to salute civilians presenting an award.

    For my part, my personal list would be different than yours in a few areas, as a cadet, I probably would high-five a league official but I would tend to agree with you about saluting veterans (I'm not a big fan of "Veteran Worship". I respect and honour their sacrifice and contributions but it stops short of the sycophancy I see displayed).
    gliderwingsJ-P Johnson cd1
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  17. #36
    quadrapiper is on a distinguished road quadrapiper's Avatar
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    Sorry - posted hurriedly. Should have added something regarding the general permission to salute civilians "out of respect." Was looking more to the next step: when, in a cadet situation, that might actually apply.

    I, for one, would no more high-five a politician "just cause," than I would the CO's dog.
    Quote Originally Posted by J-P Johnson View Post
    But, of course, that is your personal opinion. I think the discussion should be based on what the 201 and service custom allows or dictates.
    Based on my observations of RCSC custom, and best memory of the 201's restrictions (I currently don't have access to a copy). Never having seen, other than the veteran thing, any civvie other than the PM, an RO, or awards presenter get a salute, I'd say "sure, the book says you can, but that better be a truly extraordinary person."
    Quote Originally Posted by J-P Johnson View Post
    There are those who MUST be saluted (and the 201 gives a list), those who must NOT be saluted (ie living, breathing OCdts and NCMs to name but a two), and basically everyone else who MAY be saluted as a courtesy.
    Anyone other than your two examples on the no-salute list? Other than cadets, and (by custom, anyway...) CIs?
    Quote Originally Posted by J-P Johnson View Post
    Now, for consistency, there could be local or regional directives that could very well resemble your list but I wouldn't present it as a fact. For example, CentReg has flipped back and forth over the years where cadets were (or were not) to salute civilians presenting an award.
    Not speaking to that policy specifically, but, maybe it's just because the bad ones get talked about, but regional drill stuff always seems not quite right.

    Local stuff makes a bit more sense; same sort of thing as directing non-saluting zones, and the like: administering a unit, rather than writing one-size-annoys-everyone policies.
    Quote Originally Posted by J-P Johnson View Post
    For my part, my personal list would be different than yours in a few areas, as a cadet, I probably would high-five a league official but I would tend to agree with you about saluting veterans (I'm not a big fan of "Veteran Worship". I respect and honour their sacrifice and contributions but it stops short of the sycophancy I see displayed).
    A league official? Why? You wouldn't salute a high DND civvie, unless they were pulling RO duty, would you?

    Besides, bearing in mind varying service customs, if a few more "personal lists" show up, that'll offer some guidance, without setting anything in stone, for the grey areas.

  18. #37
    One thing that I have found is there are alot of 'local customs' and despite the fact we have a concrete manual so much is different. I'm thinking the next book on my reading list will be the 201.

  19. #38
    I parade in an armoury. Everyone halts and salutes both on entrance and exit to the archway to the armoury because;
    a) a plaque depicting the battle honours of the regiment and
    b) 2 plaques with members of the White Batallion

    In a word RESPECT.


    Quote Originally Posted by J-P Johnson View Post
    Has a first-year cadet actually ever asked that question or is that a solution in search of a problem? The second the first foot hits the parade square, you are marching. The second your last foot is off the parade square when leaving, you're not. It is not unlike the transition from quick march to march at-ease and back.
    Typical, perhaps but would it be correct for them to do so? As those who are filling "officer" appointments, they are supposed to be promenading until they are needed. Again, the transition from promenading to quick march is not unlike the transition from marching at-ease to marching at attention. If your corps or sqn doesn't have the Comd and DComd promenading, they should be standing at ease at the edge of the parade ground. They come to attention before they step off. They don't interrupt their progress by halting in the middle of their journey.

    Let me tell you what the practical or, rather, impractical upshot of this practice is. There is a squadron I've seen that parades nearly 200 cadets that uses a triple-gym as their parade square. There is one entrance they use and every single one of them halts at the doorway going on and going off. Do you have any idea how much time that wastes?
    L.W. Allen nlsmaircsm
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    Commanding Officer
    2818 RCACC Belleville
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  20. #39
    Once commissioned, always commissioned unless you give it up or it's taken from you. Has anyone ever been injured either mentally or physically by offering a sign of respect? By the way this conversation is going, you would think it cost something.

    Quote Originally Posted by SaulT View Post
    Okay.

    Because when the PM went to China, I saw on the news that when he got off this Canadian Forces aircraft, he was saluted by the air force officer as he exited. I just never knew that officially until now. Hahaha

    I noticed that some cadets salute Army Cadet League officials, Veterans..and Retired officers (eg, Capt (Ret'd) Insert Name Here)...are we actually supposed to salute these individuals? because according to the list above...apparently not...
    L.W. Allen nlsmaircsm
    Captain
    Commanding Officer
    2818 RCACC Belleville
    If you can't play a sport.....Be one

  21. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by L. Allen View Post
    I parade in an armoury. Everyone halts and salutes both on entrance and exit to the archway to the armoury because;
    a) directly ahead is a portrait of Queen Elizabeth,
    Not proper protocol
    b) a plaque depicting the battle honours of the regiment and
    They are not Colours and are not entitled to be paid compliments
    c) 2 plaques with members of the White Batallion
    I'm assuming this is a list of those from the regiment who lost their lives in battle? If so, one might consider it a cenotaph and, as such, shall be paid compliments.

    1 out of 3 is good enough - salute away. I just wouldn't give them 3 reason when only 1 fits protocol.

    However, with regards to cenotaphs the 201 says:
    20. Cenotaphs. Officers and men shall salute
    individually and formed military groups shall pay
    compliments when passing the National War
    Memorial and cenotaphs to military dead.
    "[W]hen passing"... where does it say you halt?

    Just out of curiosity, when they enter, do they do an about turn to face the arch?
    gliderwingsJ-P Johnson cd1
    Barrie Ontario
    The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.

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