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  1. #1

    Unhappy Flag Party Drill Manual?

    My squadron does not have a copy (if there is one) of flag party drill. In the 201 I haven't been able to find out how to perform right-right forms or inwards dresses etc. If anyone could PLEASE help me find an online copy it would mean the WORLD to me and my flag party ♥♥♥!!!

    If there isn't such thing as a flag party drill manual then if anyone has the time, could you please explain some of these drill movements?

    -Right dress
    -Change direction right/left, right/left- form
    -Counter March
    -General Salute present arms
    -Slope Arms
    -At the halt right/left, right/left- form
    -Let fly flag
    -Catch Flag

    Thank you so much >.<
    WO2 Kwan, Tanya
    FSgt//SGT//CPL//LAC
    845 Avro Arrow Sqn//618 queen City Sq
    142 Mimico Sqn

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Kwan View Post
    My squadron does not have a copy (if there is one) of flag party drill. In the 201 I haven't been able to find out how to perform right-right forms or inwards dresses etc. If anyone could PLEASE help me find an online copy it would mean the WORLD to me and my flag party ♥♥♥!!!

    If there isn't such thing as a flag party drill manual then if anyone has the time, could you please explain some of these drill movements?

    -Right dress
    -Change direction right/left, right/left- form
    -Counter March
    -General Salute present arms
    -Slope Arms
    -At the halt right/left, right/left- form
    -Let fly flag
    -Catch Flag

    Thank you so much >.<
    Right Dress...? I assume you mean with rifles. I believe head and eyes are turned to the right and the left arm is raised.
    For all rifle drill movements with the lee-enfield I would check the Sea Cadet Manual of Drill because that is the only reference that contains lee-enfield drill. Some movements are identical to C7 drill which can be found in the 201 (if you're feeling too lazy to look for the aforementioned manual), however never assume that they all are.

    Let fly/catch the flag is in the 201. Essentially pump the right hand in a downward motion on the pike to release the flag. To catch the flag, catch it with the left hand, bring it into the pike, and transfer it to the position of the carry in the right hand.

    Right forms at the halt- command is "At the Halt- Change Direction Right- Right Form". The right hand marker makes a right turn, and the remainder of the front rank makes a right incline. (remainder stands fast). on the command "quick-march", the leading person of the directing flank (marker in this case) takes 5 paces forward and halts and each person to their right halts to regain their position successively from right to left. So the marker takes 5, next takes 7, 9, etc. If it is desired that the squad mark time after the form, the "At the Halt" part of the command is dropped.

    Right form on the march. Same commands as the previous. The movement is called on the left foot because right turns/inclines are being taken If the squad is ordered "At the Halt-..." then the right hand marker takes SIX paces forward then halts. If the squad is to mark time, the "At the Halt" is dropped and 5 paces are used.

    Reference for this is around 3-38 to -40ish don't really remember sry.
    [LEFT]Second Lieutenant Jeffrey Ng
    2947 12 (Vancouver) Service Battalion RCACC

    Platoon Commander
    Duty Above All

  3. #3
    -kT is on a distinguished road -kT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwan View Post
    -Right dress
    -Change direction right/left, right/left- form
    -Counter March
    -General Salute present arms
    -Slope Arms
    -At the halt right/left, right/left- form
    -Let fly flag
    -Catch Flag

    Thank you so much >.<
    To add onto WO Ng's post..

    At my squadron, our flag party generally does center dresses. I suggest you do that, it looks better if your dressed off the Canadian flag

    counter march is called on the right foot, and thereafter check-in paces will be done. after check in paces, all members of flag party will start marking time, with the right marker and the center wheeling to their right, and the left marker wheeling to the left

    as i've illustrated here:



    this will be done by marking time FOURTEEN paces. so, thirteen, bang, away.

    when my squadron does a general salute (when we have no rifles), the outer 2 flags are dipped (squadron banner/ensign), while the Canadian flag is let fly. how to dip is highlighted in the flag party manual. if we have rifles, the same is done with the flags, except the rifles will come to present arms (right foot at a 45 degree angle to left foot, rifle held in front of you, etc)

    I believe WO Ng has covered the rest

    If you manage to get your hands on a copy of the 201 electronically, or even if you have a look at the copy of the 201 that you squadron officers should have, theres a chapter in there with flag drill. it's quite a long chapter and highlights how to do pretty much every movement you've listed above

    hope that helps!
    WO1 Tam, Kevin
    lsmaircsm
    692 BCIT Aerospace RCACS

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by -kT View Post
    To add onto WO Ng's post..

    At my squadron, our flag party generally does center dresses. I suggest you do that, it looks better if your dressed off the Canadian flag

    counter march is called on the right foot, and thereafter check-in paces will be done. after check in paces, all members of flag party will start marking time, with the right marker and the center wheeling to their right, and the left marker wheeling to the left

    as i've illustrated here:


    this will be done by marking time FOURTEEN paces. so, thirteen, bang, away.

    when my squadron does a general salute (when we have no rifles), the outer 2 flags are dipped (squadron banner/ensign), while the Canadian flag is let fly. how to dip is highlighted in the flag party manual. if we have rifles, the same is done with the flags, except the rifles will come to present arms (right foot at a 45 degree angle to left foot, rifle held in front of you, etc)

    I believe WO Ng has covered the rest

    If you manage to get your hands on a copy of the 201 electronically, or even if you have a look at the copy of the 201 that you squadron officers should have, theres a chapter in there with flag drill. it's quite a long chapter and highlights how to do pretty much every movement you've listed above

    hope that helps!
    Oh my, where to start.

    There are two schools of thought about the status of cadet flags and neither of them include dipping during a general salute.

    First, some references:

    From the 201:

    3. Dipping the Colours. Rendering a salute by lowering the Colours to the entitled dignitaries detailed in A-AD-200-000/AG-000, Honours, Flags and Heritage Structure of the CF.
    From the CFP-200


    h. Dipping the Colours – means:

    (1) rendering a Royal salute with Colours to entitled dignitaries as noted in Chapter 13, Annex A, or


    (2) lowering the ship's ensign so that it is down to a position two-thirds of the extent of the halyard when returning a salute from a merchant vessel. (Salut avec les drapeaux consacrés)
    From Chap 13 Annex A

    Serials 1 to 6 inclusive. Colours shall be carried by Colour – bearing formations and units and shall be dipped during the Royal or State Salute. Units and elements possessing a stand of Colours (Queen's and Command/College/ Regimental) shall carry both Colours. If the guard is mounted by a formation or unit which does not possess Colours, the National Flag of Canada and the CF Ensign shall be carried. The latter two shall not take post forward in review order; they shall be let fly during the Royal or State Salute and not be dipped or lowered.

    1. HM The Queen; HRH Prince Philip, The Duke of Edinburgh; HM Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother

    2. Other Members of the Royal Family

    3. Foreign Sovereigns and Members of Reigning Foreign Families; Presidents and Heads of State of Commonwealth and Foreign Countries


    4. Governor-General of Canada

    5. Governor-Generals of Commonwealth Countries

    6. Lieutenant-Governor of a Canadian Province within sphere of jurisdiction
    Dignitaries from the Prime Minister down to BGen only get a "let fly" during the general salute. You will also note that there is no mention of dipping flags at Remembrance Day parades

    Okay, here's where the two schools of thought come in.

    The CFP-200 says that cadet flags parallel certain CF flags and colours. The Army Cadet Flag and Army Cadet Corps Flag; and the Air Cadet Banner and Sqn Banner parallel colours. The ensigns parallel "Command and Other Flags".

    One school of thought says that because only colours are dipped and only dipped for the people listed above, you can't dip the corps/sqn banner (because it parallels a Colour). You don't dip the ensign because it's not a Colour and does not parallel a Colour.

    The other school of thought says that no cadet flags are Colours and, as such, are not dipped under any circumstances.

    Either way you slice it, you don't dip cadet flags for a general salute.

    Dipping Colours/flags at the drop of a hat is a Legion-thing and is wrong according to both military and civilian flag etiquette.

    -----

    I'm not sure where the version of the countermarch you describe comes from because it is not found in any version of the 201 or the CAP 90 (RCAF Drill Manual). Your reference in the 201 only covers left and right forms and does not mention countermarching.

    That being said, I did pretty much the same thing when I was in the Flag Party when I was a cadet (except we did 15-bang not 13-bang) and is something I'm trying to stamp out at my sqn for good and all. Every time I get it gone, someone comes back from being in the flag party at some summer training centre where they do it the incorrect way and it creeps back in.

    The concensus seems to be that countermarch we should be using is the spiral countermarch found in the CF band manual (CFP 202). Here's the description of the movement.

    CFP-202 Chap 3 Sec 3

    6. The spiral countermarch is used when a band is required to advance toward its rear, ie, while maintaining its original directing flanks and rank positions, without using the space required for a double wheel. In bands with an even number of files, all files right of the drum major move to the left, and all files left of the drum major move to the right as illustrated in Figure 3-3-4. In bands with an odd number of files, the same procedure is followed, and the centre file moves to the right as illustrated in Figure 3-3-5

    Note that nowhere is it mentioned that anyone marks time around. You march the semi-circle and, if the commander orders it, you mark time to get your dressing before a "for-ward" is given.
    Last edited by J-P Johnson; 23rd April 2009 at 07:12. Reason: typos
    gliderwingsJ-P Johnson cd1
    Barrie Ontario
    The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.

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    With all due respect, Sir

    In regards to the dipping flags section, this is why I added "at my squadron". I'm aware that there are things being done incorrectly, but since I was an AC, this is how they were done. I'm not passing them off and turning a blind eye, but i've been to quite a few ACR's of other squadrons, and every other single squadron has dipped (with their dips not being to 201 status). Again, I know this doesn't make their flag parties correct, nor does it make my flag party correct.

    I guess long story short, i've left this up to tradition.

    As for counter marches..

    If you refer to figure 8-6-1 in the 201, they have a diagram of how a Colour Party will be marched on when the squadron is in line. They have the standard march on, left form. However, when they reach the position they desire to be in, the diagram shows that they do a "counter march" of sorts, but not something compareable to a band's spiral counter march.

    however, nowhere in writing does it say that any movement will be done to have the flags at the front and the escorts at the back, even though in the diagram, there is definitely a movement being done after reaching that area

    if nothing was to be done after the left form, the flag party/colour party would be halted like this:

    ----------X - Sqn Comm



    ------E--------E
    ------F---C----F

    C being commander. To further clarify, this would mean that the escorts would be in the front of flag party for the entire parade, and the flags/commander to the rear

    And that is my theory is to why "counter-marches" were created

    Sir.
    WO1 Tam, Kevin
    lsmaircsm
    692 BCIT Aerospace RCACS

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by -kT View Post
    With all due respect, Sir

    In regards to the dipping flags section, this is why I added "at my squadron". I'm aware that there are things being done incorrectly, but since I was an AC, this is how they were done. I'm not passing them off and turning a blind eye, but i've been to quite a few ACR's of other squadrons, and every other single squadron has dipped (with their dips not being to 201 status). Again, I know this doesn't make their flag parties correct, nor does it make my flag party correct.

    I guess long story short, i've left this up to tradition.
    I saw the cavaet of "at my squadron" in your original post and set it aside as irrelevant. The thing about traditions is that they aren't supposed to contravene regulations or orders. Having discovered that the regulation or order exists, claiming "squadron tradition" doesn't absolve you from doing it properly.

    You might have been powerless to do anything as an AC but you are now a FSgt and, more importantly, the flag party commander. You are in the first position to influence (if not outright change) how things are done.

    Also, I don't think I've ever seen a squadron dip flags at an ACR, though I've seen a couple do it, in error, at Remembrance Day. Regardless, two (or ten) squadrons doing it wrong doesn't give anyone the right to do it as well.

    When I joined may squadron as an AC over 25 years ago, we did so many things incorrectly, I'd need pages to rhyme them off. A short list includes: senior NCOs wearing ascots, perfect attendance pins worn on the uniform, refering to our flags as Colours, and wrong lanyards worn on the wrong side.

    Anyway, through the successive efforts of various SWOs and COs (including me), we've dropped nearly all from the list (including everything listed above). Not that we're 100% perfect yet but we're still chipping away them.

    Long story short, I guess I have great difficulty continuing doing something once I've discovered it's wrong.
    As for counter marches..

    If you refer to figure 8-6-1 in the 201, they have a diagram of how a Colour Party will be marched on when the squadron is in line. They have the standard march on, left form. However, when they reach the position they desire to be in, the diagram shows that they do a "counter march" of sorts, but not something compareable to a band's spiral counter march.

    however, nowhere in writing does it say that any movement will be done to have the flags at the front and the escorts at the back, even though in the diagram, there is definitely a movement being done after reaching that area

    if nothing was to be done after the left form, the flag party/colour party would be halted like this:

    ----------X - Sqn Comm



    ------E--------E
    ------F---C----F

    C being commander. To further clarify, this would mean that the escorts would be in the front of flag party for the entire parade, and the flags/commander to the rear

    And that is my theory is to why "counter-marches" were created

    Sir.
    The problem is the only difference between the spiral countermarch and the countermarch you described in your original post is that the latter has the members of the flag party "high stepping" (marking time) while doing the 180 degree turn. Movements forward and back (or along an arc) are done on the march - not at the mark-time. You will note that with forms, for example, you don't mark time while there is forward motion.

    I think everyone whose discussed it so far agrees that the 201 is very ambiguous on this movement but the consensus reached when this has been discussed on C-W in the past was that it is better to use a movement found in drill instructions (albeit band instructions), than to use some made-up movement not found anywhere. I, personally, have send a request through my chain of command to D Ceremonial for a clarification but haven't received a reply yet.
    gliderwingsJ-P Johnson cd1
    Barrie Ontario
    The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.

  7. #7
    -kT is on a distinguished road -kT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-P Johnson View Post
    You might have been powerless to do anything as an AC but you are now a FSgt and, more importantly, the flag party commander. You are in the first position to influence (if not outright change) how things are done.

    Also, I don't think I've ever seen a squadron dip flags at an ACR, though I've seen a couple do it, in error, at Remembrance Day. Regardless, two (or ten) squadrons doing it wrong doesn't give anyone the right to do it as well.

    When I joined may squadron as an AC over 25 years ago, we did so many things incorrectly, I'd need pages to rhyme them off. A short list includes: senior NCOs wearing ascots, perfect attendance pins worn on the uniform, refering to our flags as Colours, and wrong lanyards worn on the wrong side.

    Anyway, through the successive efforts of various SWOs and COs (including me), we've dropped nearly all from the list (including everything listed above). Not that we're 100% perfect yet but we're still chipping away them.

    Long story short, I guess I have great difficulty continuing doing something once I've discovered it's wrong.
    To be honest, i've never looked into when dips are done, more into how dips are done. I (wrongfully) assumed that dips were to be done for general salutes, since this is the way our squadron has been doing it since I joined, and i've also seen it done at Remembrance Day parades. With that being said, our dips were being done incorrectly, so I promptly fixed how dips were being done, but never inquired as to when dips are done

    The same being said with counter marches (based on the band spiral counter march)

    However, now that I know otherwise, I will talk to my Flag Party officer about it.

    Thank you for your assistance!
    WO1 Tam, Kevin
    lsmaircsm
    692 BCIT Aerospace RCACS

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    DA Wright is on a distinguished road DA Wright's Avatar
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    Another point to add to -Kt...if you are the commander, you should be carrying the senior flag, and giving the words of comand from that position. The cadet occupying the position between the two flags (where you are currently) is the senior escort.

    f-E-F
    e---e

    OR

    e-F-e

    Where F is the commander carrying the senior flag, f is the next senior carrying the junior flag, E is the senior of the three escorts, and e are two escorts.

    The alternate e-F-e model is the normal format for a CF flying squadron, consisting just of the Sqn Colour and an armed escort, an air cadet unit can parallel this using just their banner.
    D.A. Wright
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by J-P Johnson View Post
    I saw the cavaet of "at my squadron" in your original post and set it aside as irrelevant. The thing about traditions is that they aren't supposed to contravene regulations or orders. Having discovered that the regulation or order exists, claiming "squadron tradition" doesn't absolve you from doing it properly.
    There is a difference between a tradition and a bad habit.
    Lt(N) V. Martel, CD
    cd

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by baloobot View Post
    For all rifle drill movements with the lee-enfield I would check the Sea Cadet Manual of Drill because that is the only reference that contains lee-enfield drill. Some movements are identical to C7 drill which can be found in the 201 (if you're feeling too lazy to look for the aforementioned manual), however never assume that they all are.
    The Sea Cadet Manual takes precedance over the CATO governing this? I know there is a hard copy at 351's squadron office. I believe it was CATO 54-04, I cannot find it on the new site but found the March 2003 version here:

    http://www.cadets.ca/WorkArea/Downlo....aspx?id=57039
    OCdt (I) Saroop, Dean
    1 Sqn RMC

  11. #11
    I love the lack of visual references in the CATO, and the lack of a reference for the movements it outlines. Did someone at DCdts just sit down and make these things up?

    JB
    Run until you can't. Then run some more

  12. #12
    DA Wright is on a distinguished road DA Wright's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juice View Post
    I love the lack of visual references in the CATO, and the lack of a reference for the movements it outlines. Did someone at DCdts just sit down and make these things up?

    JB
    The CATO is based on a RCAF drill pam that covers the lee-enfield drill, hence the differences when compared to the sea cadet manual (which I presume is based on a RCN pam of similar era). It is my understanding pictures were not included because the pam had those relatively small line drawings common to 1950s pubs, that do not readily lend themselves to reproduction.
    D.A. Wright
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Air TrgO (Cen) View Post
    The CATO is based on a RCAF drill pam that covers the lee-enfield drill, hence the differences when compared to the sea cadet manual (which I presume is based on a RCN pam of similar era). It is my understanding pictures were not included because the pam had those relatively small line drawings common to 1950s pubs, that do not readily lend themselves to reproduction.
    I am surprised to hear that it was based on the CAP 90. The descriptions of the movements seemed, well, different to those described in my copy of the RCAF version. Maybe it's just a lost-in-translation-thing.

    The drawings in the CAP 90 were greyscale photos like those found in newspapers which would REALLY be hard to reproduce properly.

    It looks like the rifle drill in the Sea Cadet manual is going to be the standard for all three elements (by virtue of it being the reference used in, at least, the new level 2 coming on line). As much as my elemental pride resists me saying this, I'm wondering if the air cadet CATO on rifle drill should be withdrawn at this point to avoid confusion
    gliderwingsJ-P Johnson cd1
    Barrie Ontario
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  14. #14
    quadrapiper is on a distinguished road quadrapiper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-P Johnson View Post
    I am surprised to hear that it was based on the CAP 90. The descriptions of the movements seemed, well, different to those described in my copy of the RCAF version. Maybe it's just a lost-in-translation-thing.

    The drawings in the CAP 90 were greyscale photos like those found in newspapers which would REALLY be hard to reproduce properly.

    It looks like the rifle drill in the Sea Cadet manual is going to be the standard for all three elements (by virtue of it being the reference used in, at least, the new level 2 coming on line). As much as my elemental pride resists me saying this, I'm wondering if the air cadet CATO on rifle drill should be withdrawn at this point to avoid confusion
    If it's just describing the same movements, with the same timings, with hands in the same place, for the same arms, then that might be a plan...

    If it was the last refuge of a distinctly RCAF form of Lee Enfield drill, then it'd be worth hanging on to.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by J-P Johnson View Post

    ...

    Dipping Colours/flags at the drop of a hat is a Legion-thing and is wrong according to both military and civilian flag etiquette.
    Apparently, this will now be something of the past. I saw an article on this in the Legion Magazine and they will now only dip the Legion Banner during appropriate ceremonies...

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by quadrapiper View Post
    If it's just describing the same movements, with the same timings, with hands in the same place, for the same arms, then that might be a plan...

    If it was the last refuge of a distinctly RCAF form of Lee Enfield drill, then it'd be worth hanging on to.
    Drill Geek that I am, at some point I'll put the CAP 90, CATOs and SC manual side-by-each and compare. If the drill in the sea cadet manual is traditional Navy, I'm willing to bet right now that there will be some places that differ with, at least, the CAP-90. Each service maintained its own drill manuals and they didn't always match.

    Our Det put out a photo copy of the old Canadian Army rifle drill pam before the CATO came out to act as a reference for the drill comps. We generally don't enter drill with arms (no rifles available) but if we did, I would have made a full-court press to get the CAP 90 accepted too. I would have even provided a copy of an actual manual for them to copy and distribute.
    gliderwingsJ-P Johnson cd1
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by marc.sigouin View Post
    Apparently, this will now be something of the past. I saw an article on this in the Legion Magazine and they will now only dip the Legion Banner during appropriate ceremonies...
    But if the Legion is half as married to tradition as we are -- and you know they are, if not more! -- none of us will live to see this change fully implemented.

  18. #18
    Touché !

    I'll give it a try at my home branch and see...

    (puts note in agenda for rememberance day ceremony practice)

  19. #19
    Byer is on a distinguished road Byer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwan View Post
    My squadron does not have a copy (if there is one) of flag party drill. In the 201 I haven't been able to find out how to perform right-right forms or inwards dresses etc. If anyone could PLEASE help me find an online copy it would mean the WORLD to me and my flag party ♥♥♥!!!

    If there isn't such thing as a flag party drill manual then if anyone has the time, could you please explain some of these drill movements?

    -Right dress
    -Change direction right/left, right/left- form
    -Counter March
    -General Salute present arms
    -Slope Arms
    -At the halt right/left, right/left- form
    -Let fly flag
    -Catch Flag

    Thank you so much >.<
    Right Dress - Tends to be done as a Centre Dress. The one on the right puts left arm up and looks towards the left (centre). The centre position (commander) puts his arm up but looks to the front. The position on the left looks to the right.

    Counter March - I'll skip, because the way I know it has already been pointed out as wrong.

    General Salute - If armed, escorts present arms. If not, do nothing!
    Slope Arms - Escorts slops arms (if armed).

    Change Direction Left (right), Left (right) - FORM - Left position does a left turn, remainder left incline. Far left takes 3 paces, brings foot in on 4 and begins marking time. Centre takes 5 paces, brings foot in on 6 and marks time. Right takes 7, foot in on 8, marks time. At 11 total paces (marching and marking time) all flag party bangs with right and continues marching.

    Let Fly/Catch - Refer to the 201.
    FSgt (Ret'd) Davis Byer gliderwingspowerwingsaircsm
    778 Banshee Squadron
    GPL, CPL(A), Class 4 FI, Group 1 IR - Seneca College, Bachelor of Aviation Technology

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Byer View Post

    Change Direction Left (right), Left (right) - FORM - Left position does a left turn, remainder left incline. Far left takes 3 paces, brings foot in on 4 and begins marking time. Centre takes 5 paces, brings foot in on 6 and marks time. Right takes 7, foot in on 8, marks time. At 11 total paces (marching and marking time) all flag party bangs with right and continues marching.
    I don't know if its just a unit thing but I don't know whats with the automatic forward that so many people talk about...


    145. On the command CHANGE DIRECTION
    RIGHT, RIGHT – FORM given as the left foot is
    forward and on the ground:

    a. the leading person of the directing flank turns
    right, takes five paces forward and marks
    time:

    b. simultaneously, the remainder of the front
    rank makes a right incline and marches
    toward its new position; and

    c. the centre and rear ranks wheel right,
    following the leading individual in each file.
    Each file, as it reaches its position on the left
    of the directing flank facing the new direction,
    shall mark time together in succession from
    the right.

    146. On the command FOR – WARD or SQUAD –
    HALT, the squad acts as ordered.
    [LEFT]Second Lieutenant Jeffrey Ng
    2947 12 (Vancouver) Service Battalion RCACC

    Platoon Commander
    Duty Above All

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