+ Reply to Thread
Page 4 of 36 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 14 29 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 705
  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Primer
    Well its funny. I was talking to an officer of a CFRC here in western ON and he said " The recruiting process for prospective CIC candidates in on the bottom of the list" . With the low levels of P-Res and Reg Force members thats their priority so it might take a few months or even longer.

    Keep trying
    Oh goody, I'm super 5(r3w3d now.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Caz
    The last I saw on the BAC website was reducing to a Gr 10 level (), in order to allow those with serving experience (ie, old NCMs who may not have a high school diploma) to enrol after having been out of the CF for a bit of time.
    I have no problem with a CFR who doesn't have a high school diploma, but in general I think every argument for a degreed officer corps in the reg. force applies equally to the CIC.

  3. #63
    Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    2004
    Location
    Victoria British Columbia Canada
    Posts
    8,252
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by Slt McKay
    Reduce it to what? With the possible exception of CFRs, I can't imagine commissionning someone who doesn't even have a high school diploma.

    Individuals can enrol with a GED......

    I've had many with Grade 10 apply, they go out, get their GED and are enrolled.

    The discussion you mentioned surrounding higher education requirements has been raised several times over that last few years and each time is dismissed.

    J

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Lt(N) Jean Cyr
    Individuals can enrol with a GED......

    I've had many with Grade 10 apply, they go out, get their GED and are enrolled.
    Isn't a GED essentially the same thing as a high school diploma? That was my understanding -- a diploma for "mature students", if you like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lt(N) Jean Cyr
    The discussion you mentioned surrounding higher education requirements has been raised several times over that last few years and each time is dismissed.
    I'm not sure which discussion you mean. The Forces have, as I understand it, generally come down on the side of a degreed officer corps.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Slt McKay
    Isn't a GED essentially the same thing as a high school diploma? That was my understanding -- a diploma for "mature students", if you like.
    GED is for anyone who didn't graduate Grade 12 - regardless of age.


    Quote Originally Posted by Slt McKay
    I'm not sure which discussion you mean. The Forces have, as I understand it, generally come down on the side of a degreed officer corps.
    This discussion has been raised more than once on CW. Got quite heated one time if I remember correctly................


    Banning IP Addresses - one spammer at a time

  6. #66
    Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    2004
    Location
    Victoria British Columbia Canada
    Posts
    8,252
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by Slt McKay


    I'm not sure which discussion you mean. The Forces have, as I understand it, generally come down on the side of a degreed officer corps.
    I was referring to your comment regarding the discussions, I assumed you meant the ones at the higher levels (DCdts and up). It has (as Julie pointed out) been discussed on CW as well, but I was referring to the brass bits and their talks.

    J

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Lt(N) Jean Cyr
    I was referring to your comment regarding the discussions, I assumed you meant the ones at the higher levels (DCdts and up). It has (as Julie pointed out) been discussed on CW as well, but I was referring to the brass bits and their talks.
    Found it -- thanks.

    I suspect it's one of those issues that's never going to go away. There's always going to be someone who finds out and says "Hey, how come...".

    Quote Originally Posted by Lt(N) J. Hillsden
    This discussion has been raised more than once on CW. Got quite heated one time if I remember correctly................
    I think that was about the time I started dressing in Nomex to read CW.
    Last edited by N. McKay; 20th July 2004 at 10:29.

  8. #68
    Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr has a reputation beyond repute Jean Ann Cyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    2004
    Location
    Victoria British Columbia Canada
    Posts
    8,252
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by Slt McKay
    Found it -- thanks.

    I suspect it's one of those issues that's never going to go away. There's always going to be someone who finds out and says "Hey, how come...".

    You're not wrong... It's likely to get regurgitated with ever increasing frequency especially in view of the fact the powers that be are trying to align CIC with PRes.

    J

  9. #69
    GED stands for 'General Educational Development'. They are standardized tests. You may pass your GED exams, but it is up to the province you reside it to decide if they will grant you a diploma based on GED results. A provincial education department may cite other requirements, such as work experience, to qualify you for the diploma.

    Just some facts for ya.

    Neill - in the realm of our Branch - why would you reject someone with a two-year tech diploma, but let some in with a university degree?
    Capt Rob Caswell powerwings
    Commanding Officer
    52 (City of Calgary) RCACS
    Per Scientiam Ad Astra
    How old would you be, if you didn't know how old you were?

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Caz
    GED stands for 'General Educational Development'. They are standardized tests. You may pass your GED exams, but it is up to the province you reside it to decide if they will grant you a diploma based on GED results.
    Thanks! I was under the impression that it was a course (or series of).

    Quote Originally Posted by Caz
    Neill - in the realm of our Branch - why would you reject someone with a two-year tech diploma, but let some in with a university degree?
    Not necessarily saying I would, but if I were to make such a rejection I'd justify it on the basis that a tech diploma trains someone for a certain specific occupation, and there it ends. A university degree, with the arguable but by no means certain exceptions of law and similar programmes, does not.

    A tech diploma isn't the same thing as a university degree (although I've met an engineering tech or two who thought it was).

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Slt McKay
    A tech diploma isn't the same thing as a university degree (although I've met an engineering tech or two who thought it was).
    Fair enough, and agreed. However, given the staffing levels of our Branch, and the difficulty we all seem to have in recruiting, training, and retaining qualified Officers - well, the goal here is to be a good example to youth. And part of that is by furthering education. That doesn't have to mean university. I believe the idea of raising the educational requirement to 'pursuing some form of accredited post-secondary achievement' would serve two-fold; showing that example, and not doing it by disqualifying individuals who decided to go to Malsapina College instead of UNB.

    -R.
    Capt Rob Caswell powerwings
    Commanding Officer
    52 (City of Calgary) RCACS
    Per Scientiam Ad Astra
    How old would you be, if you didn't know how old you were?

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Caz
    Fair enough, and agreed. However, given the staffing levels of our Branch, and the difficulty we all seem to have in recruiting, training, and retaining qualified Officers
    I acknowledge that recruiting and retention are a problem in the branch, but those problems are found throughout the Forces. The naval reserve is several hundred under strength, and MARPAC has had to pay off one of two destroyers for lack of a crew (MARLANT, I'm told, has about 1 1/2 crews for two destroyers). There's also, I understand, an MCDV tied up on the west coast, also for lack of a crew. Everyone's got manning problems, not just us by any means.

    Any education is good education, whether it's a PhD or a welding diploma. But, after several go-rounds, the Forces have come down on the side favouring an officer corps in which nearly everyone has a degree. There's still a certain amount of disagreement, as we see here, but that's the way it's gone. Whichever side of the argument one is on, I have a hard time believing that a CIC officer is any less served by a university education than a p. res officer, given the considerable parallels between the two jobs.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Slt McKay
    Any education is good education, whether it's a PhD or a welding diploma. But, after several go-rounds, the Forces have come down on the side favouring an officer corps in which nearly everyone has a degree. There's still a certain amount of disagreement, as we see here, but that's the way it's gone. Whichever side of the argument one is on, I have a hard time believing that a CIC officer is any less served by a university education than a p. res officer, given the considerable parallels between the two jobs.
    As per usual, Neill, you've hit the nail squarely on the head. A good thing for an engineer to do!

    Now we have a new question: I'll agree that a degreed officer corps is an excellent, and visionary goal to have - however, given Forces-wide retention issues, is that a feasible mid-item goal?

    A recent issue (within the past month) of MacLean's noted that out of all foreign nationals serving in the US military, Canadians held the highest percentage. Yes, proximity and diplomatic relations help bolster this number, but reading some of their stories, you see a common refrain - "I wanted to join the Army since I was a kid, but the CF didn't offer the equipment, training, or sustainability I was looking for. So I moved to the US."

    Maybe it's time to take a fresh look at educational standards Forces-wide, to bring in line with what society sees fit (or doesn't see fit) - and focus on filling the ranks with good people, not just formally educated ones.

    I wonder what CFRG would have to say about that.

    Thoughts? Comments?
    Capt Rob Caswell powerwings
    Commanding Officer
    52 (City of Calgary) RCACS
    Per Scientiam Ad Astra
    How old would you be, if you didn't know how old you were?

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Caz

    Maybe it's time to take a fresh look at educational standards Forces-wide, to bring in line with what society sees fit (or doesn't see fit) - and focus on filling the ranks with good people, not just formally educated ones.

    I wonder what CFRG would have to say about that.

    Thoughts? Comments?
    Hear, hear.

    I've been around this program for several years. I've met some incredibly good officers - some with and some without degrees. I've also met some incredibly bad officers - some with and some without degrees.

    If a potential CIC candidate has a grade 12 education or Graduation Equivalency Diploma (which is what GED stands for here), one must then assume that they are academically capable of successfully completing our BOQ, MOC etc courses. The training that we get is unique in the CF - as is the job we do. I have a hard time accepting that an individual with a degree in Economics or Computer Sciences (for instance) is automatically going to make a better CIC officer than one that doesn't.

    I believe that good CIC officers have very unique qualities that have nothing at all to do with the education that they may or not have had.

    And yes, I did complete a post-secondary education


    Banning IP Addresses - one spammer at a time

  15. #75
    Let's compare...

    A 4 year BofA degree in English Literature...qualifies you to .....ask if they want that supersized with a coke.

    I have....3.5 years experience building planes, and an international teachers licence

    Hmmm....decisions decisions.

    You're right...that pretty piece of paper is much more important.

    Uh....huh...

    Sylena Urbanoski
    Every person is in some way, my superior.- Emerson


  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Caz
    Now we have a new question: I'll agree that a degreed officer corps is an excellent, and visionary goal to have - however, given Forces-wide retention issues, is that a feasible mid-item goal?
    I think it is, but that opinion isn't based on any intimate knowledge of the recruiting and retention issues in the regular force.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caz
    A recent issue (within the past month) of MacLean's noted that out of all foreign nationals serving in the US military, Canadians held the highest percentage. Yes, proximity and diplomatic relations help bolster this number, but reading some of their stories, you see a common refrain - "I wanted to join the Army since I was a kid, but the CF didn't offer the equipment, training, or sustainability I was looking for. So I moved to the US."
    I don't know if that's an education issue or one of public perception -- the press like to talk about all of our old stuff, but hardly ever notice the new stuff, or the superb bunch of folks who run it. WRT education, the US were into the degreed officer corps idea a long time before we or the UK were. More in a second...

    Quote Originally Posted by Caz
    Maybe it's time to take a fresh look at educational standards Forces-wide, to bring in line with what society sees fit (or doesn't see fit) - and focus on filling the ranks with good people, not just formally educated ones.
    For quite a while, even after the army and air force had decided to seek degreed officers, the RCN (like the RN) was still not on board. (One historian commented that the only qualification needed to hold any staff or command job in the RN was a bridge watchkeeping certificate!) One of the things they found was that they were producing officers who were excellent mariners, but not necessarily much good at anything else. (Naval officers are expected to be more than mariners, of course.)

    I submit that very little will round a person out more fully than four years of university -- and by no means is one's learning limited to the classes one attends while there (in that respect it's like a basic military training course, in that you get much more out of it than what's listed in the performance objectives). Life experience counts for a lot too, but is much harder to assess, from a recruiting perspective, than a degree.

    There's no point in me trying to explain what I see as the value of a university degree further than that -- I've tried here before and it's clearly beyond me to do it. All I can say is it's one of those things that you either get or don't: hardly anyone I've spoken to who hasn't been to university gets it, and quite a few people who have been, some with graduate degrees, still don't get it. (I was in my last year before it finally sank in.)
    Last edited by N. McKay; 21st July 2004 at 05:21.

  17. #77
    I DO understand what you are saying. 4 years at university certainly does go a long way towards rounding out an individual.

    However, if that individual doesn't have those unique qualities that I was talking about, 4 years in a campus melting pot is not necessarily going to change that.


    Banning IP Addresses - one spammer at a time

  18. #78
    That's a different argument entirely, Syl. You still need a degree for some things. Try teaching in a high school in BC with your license.

    Though they'd likely let you teach in a college in five or ten years.

    The university experience is much more than what you major in - you're supposed to have a wide range of courses from all fields of study to complete your 'total learning experience'. And that's it right there - an undergrad degree, especially, isn't incredibly skill-oriented. It teaches you to learn, where as a tech diploma teaches you a tangible skill, and the majority of the education focuses around that, in one paticular field of study.

    At least, that was the traditional method. Now, more and more undergrad degrees (like mine) are very specialized, and don't allow a lot of room to sample from other fields of study. More tech programs are also expanding beyond their fields, instituting mandatory business, ethics, and arts classes.

    It really is the evolution of the contemporary post-secondary education in our society. Whilst a university degree may have been the end all, be all - is that acceptable anymore?

    -R.
    Capt Rob Caswell powerwings
    Commanding Officer
    52 (City of Calgary) RCACS
    Per Scientiam Ad Astra
    How old would you be, if you didn't know how old you were?

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Slt McKay
    There's no point in me trying to explain what I see as the value of a university degree further than that -- I've tried here before and it's clearly beyond me to do it. All I can say is it's one of those things that you either get or don't: hardly anyone I've spoken to who hasn't been to university gets it, and quite a few people who have been, some with graduate degrees, still don't get it. (I was in my last year before it finally sank in.)
    I don't think people object to the requirement of a University degree only because they don't see the advantage of higher education. I can see the difference between people with and without degrees and I think that somme staff and CSTC positions should require a degree : I can't comprehend that we have Majors with only a high school education, no matter what their personal qualities are.

    And I agree with you that's it's not only the "in class" education : I've always said that the most important thing I learned in University was to read and write (in French at least...) and that seem to be a lost art for many people I've met in the CIC.

    Units in large urban centres would probably be affected less by higher enrolment standards but it would probably very difficult to find officers for the more "remote" units. Unlike the Reg Force who can look at their staffing problems form a national perspective, we have to look a it form a very local point of view and sometimes the pool of potential CIC officers in a community is very small. What if no one is available with the right qualifications ?

    Should we aim for higher educational standards ? Absolutely. Can we do this without severely affecting some units ? Probably not. We should, in this and with many other things, aim for higher but remain flexible.
    Last edited by big_castor; 21st July 2004 at 07:38.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by big_castor
    Unlike the Reg Force who can look at their staffing problems form a national perspective, we have to look a it form a very local point of view and sometimes the pool of potential CIC officers in a community is very small.
    Very good point, and one I handn't thought of before. But here again, we're in the same boat (literally in some units!) as the p. res. It might be instructive to find out what they do to recruit and keep officers. In the case of HMCS BRUNSWICKER, for instance, they seem to have been able to retain a core of officers for many years -- one was a killick in the early 'seventies.

    Quote Originally Posted by big_castor
    Should we aim for higher educational standards ? Absolutely. Can we do this without severely affecting some units ? Probably not. We should, in this and with many other things, aim for higher but remain flexible.
    Sounds good!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts