Iraq again, but with Decapitation

[Earlam]

I'm sure you've all heard about the recent beheading of an American telecommunications worker (Nick Berg) in Iraq.

What do you all think?


My two cents:
It's barbaric. It's horrible. And it's to be expected.
The US can't torture Iraqis (not to mention all the other objectionable crap they've been pulling since 2001) and expect Al Qaeda not to make a very violent, brutal response (that is what they do, is it not?). This was a brutal execution (of a noncombatant, which makes it completely wrong, no matter the justification or percieved justification), but it was not a murder for the sake of murder. This was meant to drive a nail into the coffin of the Bush administration's credibility.

I saw John McCain on TV describing the act as "barbaric", and saying that it highlighted the difference between Americans and their enemies.
I think Al Qaeda's point here, though, is exactly that. There is no difference. US troops tortured and humiliated Iraqis (not to mention the civilians 'detained' or killed in this 'War on Terror' and the War in Iraq). So Al Qaeda cut an American's head off (after making him read a statement, which would be pretty humiliating on top of terrifying), and is enjoying rubbing our noses in it (I avoid the obvious pun, as it would be tasteless, and in poor humour).

The Iraqis have lost faith in the Coalition. They want them gone. Both major religious sects are rebelling, and not just the extremists. Heck, the US doesn't even know who it's fighting (first it was terrorists backed by Saddam, then Saddam, then Ba'ath Party members <yeah, right>, then Islamic fundamentalists <although admittedly, fundamentalists did start this latest round>, which it equates, of course, with terrorists <complete bull****, by the way>)!
My solution: turn the country over to the UN. Yes, the UN is largely ineffective. But the US isn't gaining anything by staying over there. It's time to think about the nation's goals (and the only reason to stay now is because leaving would be admitting defeat-- however, if every man woman and child in Iraq hates them <and it's going in that direction>, they've lost anyways. May as well save some lives on both sides).

<Note: Opinions expressed above may be incomprehensible or offensive due to lack of sleep and jerk-ishness>

[Walsh]

You torture and kill people, the get aggetated.

Aggetated people with knives, in a relitively unlawless country take matters into their own hands.

I saw complete video and it almost made me get sick to my stomach. I pitty the poor gentenlemen and his family, and wish it were Mr. Bush getting his head sawed off with a large knife instead, although, I would prefere no one getting their head cut off.

[DaveKeane]

I saw complete video and it almost made me get sick to my stomach. I pitty the poor gentenlemen and his family, and wish it were Mr. Bush getting his head sawed off with a large knife instead, although, I would prefere no one getting their head cut off.

I watched it, and I felt the same.
Actually, beforehand I read is was most likley illegal to watch it in NZ (being classed as objectionable)

Heck, my stomach is better than most, but that was digusting.

[Little Cadet]

I don't think it's right for Irakis to do that, I don't think it's right for anyone, but I really don't blame them! The US hasn't exactly been gentle with them either. Now they are just basically shooting civillians in the streets, what threat could an 8 year old girl playing with her friends really pose to armed men in tanks. :mad:

If the US really wants to "liberate" people, why don't they go to Uganda, or wherever else.... oh that's right, they have no oil :o

The problem is that it was done by extremists, it does not reprensent all the Irakis,, just part of them but now they are just all generalised as barbaric and whatever else. All it does is takes the heat off what the Us soldiers did.

[condor888000]

I was disgusted! I saw the video and it was terrible! And they did it in the name of god! The fact that these people think that what they are doing is right is one thing, but to do it in the name of god. Damn, they should all be captured, tried, and if they lose, executed by the most brutal way they legally can be!

[Little Cadet]

Damn, they should all be captured, tried, and if they lose, executed by the most brutal way they legally can be!

And americans shouldn't? You'd be pretty disgusted if you seen what they did (and the pictures shown to the public aren't the worse ones) I haven't seen them, but i'm sure they're not telling the entire truth about it. Just because they did it in the name of god... it makes it right to execute them in the most brutal way? Wake up man.... two rights don't make a wrong!

We talk about the holocaust and whatnot in highschool. Everyone is always outraged of how people have been treated. Well guilty or innocent, there shouldn't be a difference in a way someone is treated (well to a certain point..) but I think the Iraqi torture is kind of like an holocaust, but on a smaller scale. People just don't realise...they say oh the Iraqis decapitated an american.... but those are only the extremist, they don't represent the entire Iraqi population. How many innocent people have been killed or tortured by americans compared to this one american? Probably a lot more. But somehow, people think it's right for a bunch of Iraqis but not for Americans.

EDIT: I don't think it's right to execute anyone in the most brutal way, but if you think it should work that way for Iraqis, then it should work that way for everyone.

Oh and I just love the attitude of how people think they'll go to war and then are outraged that their soldiers or people are killed. I mean it is to be expected, you're going to war, there is going to be people killed! You can't just kill the enemy, cause that wouldn't be a war.....it would just be ....well I can't find the word for it.

[katielloyd]

And they did it in the name of god!
It's things like this that get the Musim religion (which, in reality, is very very peace loving) an undeserved bad reputation. In my opinion, people like that have don't do *anythng* in the name of God, or Allah, or whatever else they believe in, they do it for themselves and their own wants and then blame it on religion at the expense of those who actually follow that religion's rules. But, I shoudn't get into that.


Oh and I just love the attitude of how people think they'll go to war and then are outraged that their soldiers or people are killed.
So true! Bush's vision of a war where everybody will "realise" that America is the perfect example to follow and just roll over and let their new "heroes" take their natural resources is absolutely ridiculous. I think Bush honestly believed that he woud deploy his troups, who would quickly finish up and be home in time for supper with not so much as a scratch.

Yes, the video is disgusting, and decapitating someone (with a serrated knife no less) is totally barbaric, but the only difference between this and the cases in the United States is that this one was taped and broadcast. America has done just as many horrible things to the Iraqui prisoners (stripping them, covering them with meat and setting German Shepards loose on them). Why do they need to toruture them? They have them in a position where they're helpess anyway, torture doesn't make anything better. True, I feel terrible sorry for the man and his family, as well as for the Iraquis tortured and their families, but I hope this will put an end to all of the un-necessary torture.

[condor888000]

Little cadet: I was being rash when I said "in the most brutal way they legally can", They should however be tried, and if found guilty executed. I personally belive that if you took a life illegally, you should have your own taken from you.
As to your point that the publoc expects wars to be "clean". The public ability to accept casualties has gone way down. In Somalia, 18 rangers died and the US pulled out causing thousands of deaths. Rawanda, 10 Belgians died and they pulled out. 7 canadians have died in Afganistan and many people want us out. The sad truth is that the nations of this world are used to accomplishing missions with little or no death. When there is death the public gets up in arms over it.

Katielord:Unfortunatly this will only increase the number of people being tortured. The "they did it to us so let's do it to them" mentality will take over.

The biggest problem is, this is giving anti-wat protestors all the ammo they need. "Oh no, one American civilian was killed! we must pull out." If this causes a pull-out, the Americans will have created more of what caused them to pull-out! This is horrible, what we need to understand is that this, while terrible, shouldn't have been unexpected. I'm surpprised that so far it is this low-key. I would have thought that there would have been more revenge killings then this.

[piper]

Remember, torturing prisoners and whatnot is (as far as we know) NOT american (or the west for that matter) policy. However, torturing and killing non-combattents and civilians has been and still is the policy of terrorists. Typical of the terrorists, they go after and kill the very people who are trying to rebuild their country, cause they sure as hell can't manage to do it themselves. They're too busy killing coalition troops and making regular Iraqi's lives miserable (with all the fighting) to worry about actually making a useful difference in the world.

[Ching]

First, let me get this off my chest:
I find it absolutely repulsive that anyone would search out and watch this video. You know what happens in it. Why do you need to see it? I was almost physically ill just by reading the newspaper article about it.
The whole method of handling this (to say barbaric or evil act doesn't do it justice) situation really sticks in my craw. The fact that his family had to know that, not only was their son brutally murdered, but that it was videotaped. Then to find out from a reporter that it was broadcast all over the internet and watched by millions of people.. And on top of that, to have that same reporter photograph them in their anguish and put that photo on the front of major newspapers. I cannot put into words my disgust with the media and with the American government.
Also, addressing the photos of the torture of Iraqi prisoners: HOW STUPID are these soldiers? HONESTLY? HOW STUPID ARE THEY? Not only to do these disgusting things, but to PHOTOGRAPH IT, as if they're at a party, all thumbs up and smiling faces! They have to be the stupidest sons of *****es alive! And then the government, calling it merely "a tarnish to the reputation of the American government and military". Never mind that, as a direct consequence, an innocent civillian was barbarically and brutally murdered in front of millions of people. That's not worth blaming on the stupid, stupid soldiers. Just the fact that it gives Americans a bad name.
I'm absolutely disgusted, more than I have ever been in my life.

[Walsh]

Remember, torturing prisoners and whatnot is (as far as we know) NOT american (or the west for that matter) policy. However, torturing and killing non-combattents and civilians has been and still is the policy of terrorists. Typical of the terrorists, they go after and kill the very people who are trying to rebuild their country, cause they sure as hell can't manage to do it themselves. They're too busy killing coalition troops and making regular Iraqi's lives miserable (with all the fighting) to worry about actually making a useful difference in the world.
What about everything that went on in Vietnam, all the brutality, murder and tourture, the US Servicement wrought upon the Vietnamese? What about the "debriefings" of the inmates of concentration camps, where victims of German interogations were questioned specifically about their tourture, to find out what was effective (it came to be useful information in Vietnam).

What about the Regimes that are put in place by the US Government and allowed to remain in place, who torture and mass murder their own citizens?

The Iraqi fighters in Iraq are fighting against the worlds most powerful tyrant, who has been making the lives of Iraqi citizens miserable for years.

You don't welcome conquerors who bomb and tourture you.

[Coomber 535]

I've heard that it was done in a form of retaliation against the americans. But... two wrongs don't make a right.

[Agnew]

Anybody watch 60 minutes 2, the other day? They had the girl who was in one of these pictures. One of the pictures shows Iraqi's lined up, nude, and I believe their heads covered. She's standing there SMILING, SMOKING, and pointing her finger at them. What did she have to say? She said she was ordered to. That the FBI wanted them softened up. And that means you torture them. Taking insulting pictures of this. Put them in homosexual positions. Some American soldiers even had the 'urge' to engage in sexual activities with the Iraqi's.

That made my little respect for the US Army go to zilch.

And the fact that the US knew that this torture was happening and kept it 'hush hush' is very disgusting.
The execution of this man is very gruesome. The only video I've seen is the clips on TV. Did he deserve it? Nope. Was it an effective way of sending a message to American troops/Government? Yes. The US Government is so obnoxius that it literaly risks the lives of their soldiers.

As for the family finding out about it by the press. I'd be thankful to find out like that rather than be surfing the net and come across a video of your son being executed. So what if the reporter took pictures. So what if the reporter broke the news. If it wasn't this reporter it would have been another reporter. And the pictures kind of tug at the heart. It's sad, really. American stupidity = American death.

[piper]

And Saddam Hussein was a kind and benevolent ruler and North Vietnam respect the rights of prisoners, soldiers and civilians? I hardly think so. If your going to pick the lesser of the two evils, pick the one that at least tries to follow rules of democracy. Would you rather see America be the superpower in the world, or maybye a new Saddam would be more to people's preference. Its easy to criticize when your sitting on the sidelines. What the American troops did is disgusting (and the story that they were ordered to is utter bulls***, the Americans are not that dumb to order that), and what terrorists do is equally wrong. This is what happens in war, you only need to look at history to see that. So then, why did this come as such a surprise? The Iraqis disfigured and mutilated dead Americans (anyone remember that?), so it is only natural to expect that some troops would have their anger, or frustration boil over. Its not right, but it happens.

[Ching]

This torture has been going on for weeks and weeks. By my calculations, since before those 4 contractors were murdered and mutilated.
Also, by my calculations, a lot more wrong is being done by Americans than by Iraqi people.
Also, the Iraqi people are on the defense. I'm not excusing their acts, but people tend to lash out a lot more viciously when they're cornered than when they're on the offense. Hence, more heinous deeds being done. Fewer, but more heinous. It only seems like they (the Iraqis) are more in the wrong because of the media bias: they're the enemy.
In my opinion, the fault is on the Americans. If they've done what they went there to accomplish, they should have long ago turned to peacekeeping, not policing (hey, reminds me of a certain beer ad!) If they were keeping the peace, there would be far less anger directed towards them.

[Ching]

as smart as a bunch of 12 year olds.
I take offense! I was far smarter than that when I was 12!


As for the family finding out about it by the press. I'd be thankful to find out like that rather than be surfing the net and come across a video of your son being executed. So what if the reporter took pictures. So what if the reporter broke the news. If it wasn't this reporter it would have been another reporter. And the pictures kind of tug at the heart. It's sad, really. American stupidity = American death.
I agree that it's better than finding it on the internet, yes, but I think that there must have been a better way to break the news than via a reporter.
Also, I think that they should have had the tact not to publish them in their anguish. I think that the family would want as much privacy as possible right now, not to be in the midst of a media circus. Grief is a very private thing.

[condor888000]

No, there wouldn't. Much of this violence is being created by terroists who hate the Americans and all they stand for. If they were peacekeeping there would be more attacks since you cannot maintain the same amount of vigilance as you can if you are policing. Also, peacekeeping requires that there is a peace to keep. There isn't.

[condor888000]

I take offense! I was far smarter than that when I was 12!

I agree that it's better than finding it on the internet, yes, but I think that there must have been a better way to break the news than via a reporter.
Also, I think that they should have had the tact not to publish them in their anguish. I think that the family would want as much privacy as possible right now, not to be in the midst of a media circus. Grief is a very private thing.

You may have been, but plenty of people weren't.
And what do you expect? They're reporters. They're paid to sell newspapers, and this sold a lot of them.

[DMCorrigan]

I don't care who does it. This sort of thing is against the Geneva Convention and the perpetrators should be killed or charged with war crimes.

That, in my opinion, should go for both sides.

However, I'm not here to argue, because there's no debate here. Please keep your debate civil and remember, we're not out to offend other people. It's very easy to offend others in an argument on such a topic, so please keep that in mind.

[Tomtom]

Thats enough with the insults directed towards other nations militarys.

The actions of a few, do not give you a right to start slinging insults around in here.

The Canadian Military doesn't have such a colourful past either.

[Ching]

You may have been, but plenty of people weren't.
I was half kidding. I was much smarter than that when I was 12, but I wasn't offended by it. :P


And what do you expect? They're reporters. They're paid to sell newspapers, and this sold a lot of them.
It's exactly what I expect. That doesn't make it right.

[Thib]

The Canadian Military doesn't have such a colourful past either.

Good point, I was going to say the samething. It easy blaming others and closing our eye on the wrong that we also have done.

[Ching]

No, there wouldn't. Much of this violence is being created by terroists who hate the Americans and all they stand for. If they were peacekeeping there would be more attacks since you cannot maintain the same amount of vigilance as you can if you are policing. Also, peacekeeping requires that there is a peace to keep. There isn't.
Not any more. There was something that resembled non-war for a brief period. Otherwise, they'd still be officially "at war". I think that it was when the coalition forces decided to keep policing that the violence flared up again.
Yes, much of the violence is instigated by terrorists. However, if the Americans would adjust their methods a bit, so that the Iraqi people didn't feel threatened and put upon by them, I think things would go more smoothly. Hell, I"m no political strategist. I just think that, if they keep being attacked, they must be doing something wrong! You pick up the iron the first time from the hot side, you get burned. Do you keep trying to pick it up that way, or do you look for a handle that doesn't get as hot? Or, if you're that damn stubborn, why not unplug the iron and wait til it cools down? There's always another way.

[Canadian Idol]

I never saw it on the tv... nor do I want to. I saw enough in the paper... which I actually came about during my research for a law project. I can't believe what happened... he was just an innocent civilian too!

I also heard, though (flying the plane straight) that the government at his emabassy told Mr. Berg that the terrorists were going through a hostile period, and had warned him to leave the country... and he refused. Now, I can assume that he didn't know that he would die if he didn't leave, but still... he was warned.

Above all else though... no one deserves to die that way... not in so much pain, and videotaped as a warning to your country. That's just sick and disturbing.

GL.