Cadet System Today - Perspective Required [Archive]

lee_air

23rd May 2005, 20:48

First, I do not want to re-hash old topics brought fourth on CW. If I do, Moderator refer me to the most relevant thread. I put this topic in CW Legion because I would like a perspective from those who have been in the Cadet system previously as well those who are CIC Officers.

A similar topic like this one was posted on TAG forums, about the cadet system today and how there are many things that changed for the better. Some even believe that cadets is turning into 'boy scouts' because of automatic promotions (CPL for example), big units not being able to cope with large amounts of cadets, small units not being able to raise their quota, the CHAP program, which all results in possibly a different 'cadet' than what at least I was exposed to and I'm sure many of you have as well. CSTC's have also made a difference, like Blackdown apparently stating it will start capping the amount of units who use the Trg Facility in the winter months as some believe "cadets don't train in the winter". As well, at what point does a Cadet get RTU'd for not completed the required training for a summer camp? The only situation I can think of is a Glider Cadet, not meeting the mandatory requirements.

Are we becoming less demanding of our cadets? Sometimes I myself demand a lot of the Senior NCOs, yet there are others who think they are being over-worked. Promotion requirements are another factor, currently in my region there are no mandatory requirements for a local 'merit' factor into the promotion. Some units have promotional exams! On cadets.ca you can see for yourself --> http://www.cadets.ca/aircad/ranks-grades/local_e.asp
BUT - It's not mandatory.

Don't get me wrong, I love the cadet program and everything it stands for. I'm simply looking from a perspective from others on this topic.

Your thoughts...

Bright Eyes

24th May 2005, 05:14

I think occasionally people like to reminice about the "good old days" that never really existed. It's giving us a false impression about what it was like to be a cadet 20 or 30 years ago. No one ever remembers the bad stuff. They just like to tell the heroic tales of when they did the confidence course in their bare feet and when they ate nails for breakfast ... AND LIKED IT THAT WAY! The world is changing and I think the cadet program has to meet that challenge and deliver a program that will appeal to today's youth.

I don't see any big problem with the existing standards for promotion to Corporal. I don't recall anyone ever being refused a promotion to that rank. Occasionally you may have a backlog of Cpls if your cadets in that rank are poorly trained and don't get camp. If you have a problem with it, that's what local standards are for.

Some squadrons have promotional exams, some don't. That's why they call them local standards. My squadron never had exams because we were really small. Chances are only 1 or 2 people would be up for promotion at a time, so it was never a big deal. It would have been useless to have exams at my unit. Other units in my region had used them for ages. So, what would be the point in setting down a regional mandate that many units would just ignore. That's why the provision was put forward for local standards. If you see reason for those to be set up, talk to your CO about it.

There will always be big units that are too big and small units that are too small. That's the way the world works. In rural areas, the units tend to be smaller because people have to drive a long way to get there. (Or they could be big because they cover a wider geographical area.) In cities, the units tend to be bigger because they have a bigger population base. (Or the could be smaller because there are more units to choose from.) To draw cadets, it all depends on how active your unit is at recruiting and on what night you parade. I don't see how that really contributes to the "Boyscout Effect."

the CHAP program, which all results in possibly a different 'cadet' than what at least I was exposed to and I'm sure many of you have as well.
What, one that hasn't been physically or emotionally abused? Shameful. :rolleyes: MISUSE of the CHAP program has created some problems. However, it was set up as a measure to protect cadets from being abused. I have never understood why so many people object to cadets knowing their rights and responsibilities and having protection from being hurt. There has been a billion threads on this point, so I won't open the kettle.

Blackdown apparently stating it will start capping the amount of units who use the Trg Facility in the winter months as some believe "cadets don't train in the winter".
Could it be because of budget constraints? Perhaps it's not a conspiracy to ruin your fun at all. Of course we train in the winter. Most of our training is in the winter when you think about it. Some people are just ignorant and no matter how much you try, there will still be people that say that you're not training the cadets hard enough, or you're training them too hard. Just try not to be swayed by them.

I can't really speak to your point about summer camps, as not many people get RTUed from band camps. All the testing is done at the end and we give retests, so it's not like other courses where you can fail halfway through if you don't pass a performance check. The only reasons would be medical (if they've broken their foot and can't march), voluntary (which we try to prevent), and disciplinary (which we also try to prevent). Oftentimes, the cadet that gave you the worst time in week 1 stands the most to gain by completing the course. It's better for them to be at cadet camp with friends and regulations and safety than it is for them to be at home. It's up to the officers then as to whether they want to keep the cadet and hopefully help to change them, or let him go home and give up. After all, we are here to help youth. Not just the ones that are eager and ready to go ... but all of them.

Sometimes I myself demand a lot of the Senior NCOs, yet there are others who think they are being over-worked.
Do not let other people dictate your philosophy to you. They can run their squadron however they like. Just because they feel that teaching more than 1 class a night is too stressful doesn't mean that your cadets have to follow the same route. Some cadets can handle it ... some can't. I think one of the biggest improvements in the cadet program is the ability to individualize a cadet's experience. Each cadet's experience can be entirely different.

It is part of your job as an officer to recognize the strengths of certain cadets and to push them just a little bit further. Most times the cadets will surprise you and they'll accomplish way more than you ever expected. That's the fun part of being an officer. Sometimes you'll have cadets that are unmotivated and do not strive beyond mediocre. If you expected them to work as hard as the overachiever, then you'll never get anything done. Instead of decreeing that all cadets of a certain rank have this requirement of work and then having the good cadets pick up the slack unthanked for the bad ones, individualize the training plan. Assign tasks to each cadet. Some will get more and they will be rewarded for good work. Some will get less and maybe they'll be motivated to do more, and if they're not, well, you can pat them on the head and move on. This does require a person to be very familiar with their cadets, their limitations and their strengths. In big units, sometimes that isn't possible, but I think elements of that mindset can still be retained. By showing cadets that they are unique and programming it to meet their needs, I believe you can retain more cadets and encourge those less motivated ones to try a little harder because you've recognized them individually and personally challenged them.

That's all I can think of right now.

Lil Lightnin

24th May 2005, 08:49

Corporal is automatic now?

...

lee_air

24th May 2005, 09:09

For the rank of Corporal, it has never been 'automatic', but look at the National Standards. Level 1. The justification for doing this is Level one is to prepare you for that rank, the training you receive during your first year of training prepares you to accomplish these tasks.

For the CHAP comment there, no thats not what I meant. Don't get me wrong the CHAP program needs to be in place. But when you have a situation with a senior cadet fixing a problem with another cadet, voices may be raised, then you have yourself a CHAP situation right there. When I was a Cadet in the early years of CHAP, NCOs would yell at you for mistakes for correction purposes. Now it seems most are either afraid of the repercussions or will find other means, going up the chain, etc. There's no form of verbal abuse in that situation at all unless your degrading the person.

DA Wright

24th May 2005, 09:52

Corporal is automatic now?

...

It depends on how you read the order. There is one sentance that says promotion is not automatic, so you would think it ends there, but no.

The order goes on to describe national and local criteria. Local criteria are only to be applied when there is a requirement to establish merit because there are more qualified cadets than there are available positions.

Essentially, if the number of cadets of any given rank falls below the minimum quota, a qualified cadet (ie. any cadet who meets the minimum national criteria) must be promoted to fill the vacancy, thus making the promotion "automatic".

With regards to Cpl, since the upper limit to the quota was removed, there is never a requirement to establish merit; so local criteria are never applied. If only national criteria are applied, the only prerequisite is to have succesfully completed level 1. The CATO mandates that promotions are reviewed by end Nov each year, so notionally, as of the end of Nov, every cadet who has completed level one should be promoted Cpl.

This has been discussed, and the bottom line is that the 'norm' should be that the bulk of cadets who have completed level 1 should be promoted to Cpl, but that it remains at the CO's discretion. If a cadet is deemed not to be ready for promotion, and the CO has grounds to support that decision, then it remains the CO's perogative not to promote that cadet.

Chief Hoult

24th May 2005, 10:02

For the CHAP comment there, no thats not what I meant. Don't get me wrong the CHAP program needs to be in place. But when you have a situation with a senior cadet fixing a problem with another cadet, voices may be raised, then you have yourself a CHAP situation right there. When I was a Cadet in the early years of CHAP, NCOs would yell at you for mistakes for correction purposes. Now it seems most are either afraid of the repercussions or will find other means, going up the chain, etc. There's no form of verbal abuse in that situation at all unless your degrading the person.

How does yelling work for correction purposes? I can see in an amergency situtation....like...if there's a fire, I'm not going to be saying, "Hey there, do you mind getting out of the building? It's on fire." However, I fail to see how yelling can be used for typical correction purposes.

CH

N. McKay

24th May 2005, 10:32

How does yelling work for correction purposes?

Whether or not it works has nothing to do with whether or not it constitutes harassment.

Bright Eyes

24th May 2005, 10:44

But when you have a situation with a senior cadet fixing a problem with another cadet, voices may be raised, then you have yourself a CHAP situation right there.
I'm a band instructor, so when I'm correcting drill while the band is playing I have to speak at an above normal volume to be heard. That would probably be the only time that I would think that you'd need to raise your voice to get your point across, except for the occasional "Quiet down!" in a noisy room.

Is there other instances where yelling is necessary to do your job?

jhunter

25th May 2005, 18:13

Is there other instances where yelling is necessary to do your job?

LAST CALL FOR CANTEEN!

Dick

25th May 2005, 18:19

I know it's not "yelling" per se, but drill commands, especially in a larger unit, require some volume ;)

Bright Eyes

25th May 2005, 19:13

LAST CALL FOR CANTEEN!
Way to wreck the one time I try to be serious, there funny guy. :p

r031button

29th May 2005, 15:16

I think what gets people into this nostaglia mode is the demiliterization of Cadets. It has become alot less militant in nature that is a fact. It is however, due to more then CHAPS. While the introductions of CHAPS has made it harder for many NCO's and Officers to discipline Cadets, it is unfairly targeted; one should also look at the enphasis shift, it's become less about building disicplined officer canidates and more about the drill and deportment, which in itself is simply a tool. For example, it was not uncommon in the 1970's for Cadets to preform section attacks, they also trained on C1 rifles, and wore the same uniform as the units they were attached too.

With regards to yelling as a necessary tool. The only reason it is used on military courses, or in other courses, is to create stress, and to forcce reactions to stress. Thos reactions to stress can be numberous, but I personally beleive I became much more diciplined, proactive, ect. as a result of one month of reserve BMQ then I did in 4 years of Cadets.

Chief Hoult

29th May 2005, 15:19

With regards to yelling as a necessary tool. The only reason it is used on military courses, or in other courses, is to create stress, and to forcce reactions to stress. Thos reactions to stress can be numberous, but I personally beleive I became much more diciplined, proactive, ect. as a result of one month of reserve BMQ then I did in 4 years of Cadets.

12 year olds don't need to have 'created stress'. It's not necessary for them, and I'm sure there is the possibility for long term detrimental effects -- and I hardly think seniors, aged 14-18, are qualified to create/operate such 'stressed' environments; even if it is created articificially.

CH

AMothfromWpg

29th May 2005, 15:39

engineer

29th May 2005, 16:10

One thing i've noticed in my five years in cadets is drill standards are not what they used to be.

Chief Hoult

29th May 2005, 16:36

Chief Hoult

29th May 2005, 16:37

One thing i've noticed in my five years in cadets is drill standards are not what they used to be.

That's up to the individual corps to enforce :)

CH

Juice

29th May 2005, 16:50

One thing i've noticed in my five years in cadets is drill standards are not what they used to be.
Drill Standards only slip if the people instructing the drill allow them to.

JB

Bugler

29th May 2005, 17:16

One thing i've noticed in my five years in cadets is drill standards are not what they used to be.

What did they used to be?

engineer

29th May 2005, 18:06

AMerrall

29th May 2005, 20:59

I know to the basics that I staffed for 2 years, we were enforcers and developers of such skills as attention to detail, cleanliness, time management and teamwork- essential skills to have and to try to instill in 2 weeks, so yes there are times where it will be somewhat stressful to both staff and candidate lol.
I agree with Colin, here...which doesn't always happen. But seriously now, attention to detail, cleanliness, time management, and certainly teamwork do NOT require yelling...at all...save emergency situations. I don't necessarily agree that it needs to be stressful either...I would call it more a 'sense of urgency.' The cadets can be taught all that so long as the PO is ensuring that there are things for the cadets to do and problems for them to solve - agin...no yelling.

r031button

29th May 2005, 22:48

12 year olds don't need to have 'created stress'. It's not necessary for them, and I'm sure there is the possibility for long term detrimental effects -- and I hardly think seniors, aged 14-18, are qualified to create/operate such 'stressed' environments; even if it is created articificially.

CH

I wasn't validating it; I was giving a reason why it is used. Do I agree with it? In some cases yes, in other no, why? Because kids, that's what Cadets are, are smart. They know what they can get away with, and talking to them sternly, which isn't really effective when the person talking to them is 15, doesn't have much of an effect without an actual negative reaction. Can yelling be that negative reaction? Yes, but it's not always, in fact it's almost never, the correct course of action in Cadets.

A lot of people say that the drill standard slipping is the responsibilities of individual Corps or Squadrons. However, when you have so many cases of it, spread our amongst some many organizations, through all elements of Cadets, doesn't that point to a problem in the system as a whole? I mean there will always be Corps with a particularly strong cadre of NCO's that create excellent Cadets; and there will always be the opposite. However, when the standard of the average Corp starts dropping; isn't it time to really bite the bullet and admit that maybe we've gone to far?

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not advocating RSM's using pace sticks on Cadets, nor am I suggesting bag running Cadets for improper drill. However, I do believe the system has lost the sternness that helps create discipline. You don't get discipline from giving out nothing but positive reinforcement; you need a stern hand to provide a negative reaction to counter productive cadets. But how does this effect recruitment and retention at the Corp level, what do we do to make cadets enjoyable and rewarding?

Fun on training nights, something many NCO's worry about, can come not only from Corp level activities, but from camaraderie developed through overcoming challenges. Attaining the standards required by your NCO's shouldn't be an automatic; it should be a challenging experience, something that really pushes the younger Cadets. That way when they finally have their right dress, about turn, or left turn on the march down they feel like they've truly accomplished something, that they've overcame adversity. Talk to anybody that's really accomplished something challenging with a group of people, they'll without question tell you that those people became some of their closest friends; and the result is that the experience became enjoyable and rewarding.

Wow, that wasn't supposed to be that long; sorry for the rant, that's just my opinion. I don't want to see a hard core military attitude in Cadets, but I think it needs to differentiate itself from boy scouts; and that is a serious and honest opinion.
.

Bright Eyes

30th May 2005, 03:04

Last summer at HMCS Quadra during partice division i thought the parade gunner was going to have a heart attack when he saw the TWGTs. They were all over the place when they did the left turn before the eyes right. Now when i was an OC/AC i know for sure that all of the OC/ACs could keep their dressing when we did turns on the march now it wasnt perfect but we werent all over the place.
I believe that it's cyclical. Some years will be better than others. And it always comes back around. I definitely see that in the band program over the summers. Some years the senior band will be incredible ... and others ... well ... not so incredible. That's just the way it is sometimes.

It's easy, as a staff cadet or officer, to look at a TWGT division and see that they're not in step or have poor dressing. But when you're 13 and actually IN the division all nervous and trying to do the right thing, you'd probably thought that you were doing pretty darn good. ... and really ... No one is going to romantically reminice about all the times that they were doing really poor drill, except maybe your DO or DPO that will tell you that you turned left instead of right 9 of the 14 days you were there.

Chief Hoult

30th May 2005, 08:19

Wow, that wasn't supposed to be that long; sorry for the rant, that's just my opinion. I don't want to see a hard core military attitude in Cadets, but I think it needs to differentiate itself from boy scouts; and that is a serious and honest opinion.
.

I think we're still experiencing a backklash from the introduction of CHAP. When it was introduced, we had this massive swing from too stern to too nice. People ere afraid to discipline, because they failed to understand the system (and in all fairness, it wasn't taught to them correctly in many cases). The standard, at least in my view, is beggining to pick up as the years go on, because people are realizing their limits, and more importantly, how to operate within those limits.

CH

Kortytoh

30th May 2005, 09:53

I believe that what Chief Hoult is saying is spot-on, at least at the LHQ level. NCO and Officers are beginning to realize that they can push cadets much further without being limited by CHAP. However, I've seen an opposite trend at CSTCs -- slacker and less disciplined every year I've been there. Perhaps the CSTCs were slower in the implementation of CHAP (I don't know because I never went to camp pre-CHAP) and are now trying to "catch up" with the LHQ, while the LHQ are rebounding.

I agree that the removal of the military aspect of the CCM is detrimental to the spirit of the organization. Many cadets join specifically because they don't want to be Boy Scouts -- they want the military aspect to really be there, not just in our uniforms but in our training and environment as well. If it weren't for the vocal Bleeding Hearts Society, this might not be an issue, but unfortunately, many people (and many Cadet parents) equate military-oriented cadets with child soldiers in Africa. This perception must be erased if we are ever to return to a more military-oriented CCM.

As for yelling at cadets, sometimes, there are cadets that just need someone to be mean to them. Dispute this if you wish, but many cadets will respect you more if you don't treat them like 6-year-olds and push them to their limits -- and often the only way to do this is by the stress-inducing yelling described above. The only place where I think yelling is really out of place is, ironically, when disciplining a cadet, because then it shows that the superior is just plain angry.

r031button

30th May 2005, 17:31

I think if CHAPS has had anyt negative effect on Cadets it's been in makeing the jobs of NCO's much harder, officers too. And I have to agree, the shift towards too nice is as bad if no worse then the pre chap hardcore discipline. It does not produce the Cadet we want, rather it produces individuals that have gained little from participation with Cadets. That's not the goal, Cadets should influence some form of change in a person, people should feel that they've been bettered by beign Cadets. How can that happen when every time instructors see poor drill they just say " bad year" or "they're learning at their own pace". Drill is simple muscle memory; it does not require higher level thought, so those excuses are irrelelvent. If Cadets are having a hard time with drill on course, maybe they need less recreation and more drill square time. Push them, make them proud of how well they do a left turn on the march.

Lt(N) Jean Cyr

30th May 2005, 19:13

I think if CHAPS has had anyt negative effect on Cadets it's been in makeing the jobs of NCO's much harder, officers too.

CHAPS are worn by cowboys.

And I have to agree, the shift towards too nice is as bad if no worse then the pre chap hardcore discipline. It does not produce the Cadet we want, rather it produces individuals that have gained little from participation with Cadets.

Really? How many recent graduates of the cadet programme have you personally met or spoken to lately that haven't gained anything from participation with the CCM? What are you basing that statement on?

That's not the goal, Cadets should influence some form of change in a person, people should feel that they've been bettered by beign Cadets.

Again, what are you basing this type of comment on? I know many senior cadets who have been in cadets since the inception of the CHAP programme and they would tell you differently I'm sure.

How can that happen when every time instructors see poor drill they just say " bad year" or "they're learning at their own pace". Drill is simple muscle memory; it does not require higher level thought, so those excuses are irrelelvent. If Cadets are having a hard time with drill on course, maybe they need less recreation and more drill square time. Push them, make them proud of how well they do a left turn on the march.

I'm not sure where you come from...but from the corps I've seen on parade there is pride and better drill than some regular force units I've seen on parade.

Practice makes perfect. Belittling, yelling and screaming, doesn't. It just ticks people off and makes them stop trying or quit altogether.

Quite frankly, I'd much prefer to see a cadet corps/sqn with a few mistakes on the parade square if they are meeting the aims of the programme and having a good, fun time while doing it.

Get a grip. The CCM is a youth organization.

J

Bos'n101

30th May 2005, 20:07

It does not produce the Cadet we want, rather it produces individuals that have gained little from participation with Cadets.
Lt(N) Cyr covered this post pretty well, but I'd like to address this one comment. I attended Bos'n TG 1 at Ontario in 1999. There I attended the first CHAP course to be held at the camp(from what I've been told). Having joined only a few months before, its safe to say, I've spent my entire cadet career under the CHAPP. Read my profile carefully, talk to some of the people I've served with, then come back and tell me that not only me, but none of my peers are good enough.
CHAPP is in no way a hinderance to the CCM. It simply forces us to lead, rather than abuse.

Gungod

30th May 2005, 20:23

The Cadet program has changed (Thank goodness)

What people doen't understand is that a Cadet joining today is having more fun and more opportunities than a Cadet that joined 30 years ago.

The Cadet program has changed as society has changed. 30 years ago you would hear complaining about women being given the right to vote and how minorities should never be allowed in the country. Arent you glad times change?

Cadpat Sailor

30th May 2005, 20:24

i yell, but only to be heard. I've never yelled at a cadet. I may have had a "mean voice" and put a bit of stress on the band, but never too much and only enough to get the job done.

AMerrall

30th May 2005, 21:02

I've yelled at a cadet once, last summer. He had it coming, but I wasn't right to do it. I could have handled the situation better.

I joined in December 1998. CHAP was not taught at my corps until the following fall, and so I experienced no CHAP. Despite the fact that there were rumblings of such a program, and thus things had calmed down I'm sure years past, it was difficult. But the program is better now, and so is my Corps.

Colin was right when he said that we are now learning how to operate within our boundaries. The CCM is a valuable program, and it is better now because of CHAP. It has reformed leadership styles in Cadets, and it is up to Officers and NCOs now to use that leadership in a positive way, not complain that standards are dropping and do nothing.

Cadets has made me a better person - no question. Those who take the time to complete the program walk away as better citizens because of it, with unique experiences and knowledge to fall back on that most other people lack.

CHAP is not the issue here - poor leadership is. I'm not sure how relevant some of that is...I just started typing and this is what I ended up with. I guess I'm just tired of hearing people complain about how slack cadets is without taking action. :mad:

[this wasn't directed at anyone specificly]

SLt T. Clausen

30th May 2005, 21:25

I may have had a "mean voice" and put a bit of stress on the band, but never too much and only enough to get the job done.

That's called being firm and direct.

I agree that drill has gone down in the CCM since I joined. I joined when I was 15, so my recollection is fairly clear. When I was level two, all of us could do all the turns on the march etc. very well. I see level twos now, and it's... not so much.

r031button

30th May 2005, 23:56

Get a grip. The CCM is a youth organization.

So are the British Cadets, ask them what they do, they train on L85's and spend time in the feild, on excercises.

I wasn't advocating yelling or abuse, my posts should have made that clear. Infact, my last post ended with me saying I didn't wnat a hard core military attitude in Cadets. What I was saying though was that there are certain times when yelling at a Cadet, or at least being stern, can be benificial.

As for the comment about graduates, my opinions are based on discussions I've had with graduated Cadets, or those who left the same time I did. I'm speaking for the perspective of a graduated Cadet who's entire career was under CHAPP and then when on to the reserves where I've found an incredible amount of pride in uniform and in how I handle myself on the parade square; mostly because I was held to a high standard when I was trained and I pride myself on attaining that standard.

I'm sorry sir (or m'am) but frankly I don't see the problem with being stern and hard on Cadets. I firmly believe that those who over come adversity are the better for it, and that if you can gradually make standards harder for Cadets, 2nd yrs held to a higher standard then 1st for example, you will see an increase in esprit de corps and in performance.

Also, for the record, did it ever occur to you that those reg force units might not have the same amount of pride in drill as Cadets because they have better things to do with their time then drill?

Lt(N) Jean Cyr

31st May 2005, 06:13

So are the British Cadets, ask them what they do, they train on L85's and spend time in the feild, on excercises.

That's nice, they obviously have different training aims.

I wasn't advocating yelling or abuse, my posts should have made that clear. Infact, my last post ended with me saying I didn't wnat a hard core military attitude in Cadets. What I was saying though was that there are certain times when yelling at a Cadet, or at least being stern, can be benificial.

On one hand you are saying you don't advocate yelling, on the other you say it can be beneficial. I can only think of one occasion where yelling would be appropriate...and that would be to avoid immediate danger to a cadet or cadets.

As for the comment about graduates, my opinions are based on discussions I've had with graduated Cadets, or those who left the same time I did. I'm speaking for the perspective of a graduated Cadet who's entire career was under CHAPP and then when on to the reserves where I've found an incredible amount of pride in uniform and in how I handle myself on the parade square; mostly because I was held to a high standard when I was trained and I pride myself on attaining that standard.

So you 'graduated' as a cadet who went through cadets under the current CHAP programme, and you feel you have an incredible amount of pride in your uniform and how you handle yourself on the parade square, because you were trained to a high standard. Got it. Kudos to your officers for being competent enough to balance the CHAP programme and deliver the cadet programme at the same time.

I'm sorry sir (or m'am) but frankly I don't see the problem with being stern and hard on Cadets. I firmly believe that those who over come adversity are the better for it, and that if you can gradually make standards harder for Cadets, 2nd yrs held to a higher standard then 1st for example, you will see an increase in esprit de corps and in performance.

Give examples of how to make the standards harder. You're too vague.

Also, for the record, did it ever occur to you that those reg force units might not have the same amount of pride in drill as Cadets because they have better things to do with their time then drill?

Heh...actually yes, it had occurred to me.

J

Chief Hoult

31st May 2005, 08:50

I wasn't advocating yelling or abuse, my posts should have made that clear. Infact, my last post ended with me saying I didn't wnat a hard core military attitude in Cadets. What I was saying though was that there are certain times when yelling at a Cadet, or at least being stern, can be benificial.

Ahhh, yelling, and 'being stern', are not interchangeable.

Yelling: YOU LITTLE CRAPHEAD, YOU ARE AN INSULT TO THIS PROGRAM!!!! WHY DON'T YOU TRY NOT SUCKING!! AHHHH!!!!! (at this point, I imagine shirts ripping, in the 'Incredible Hulk' kinda way...go ahead...picture it..)

Being Stern: PO Bloggins, your drill is not at the standard of required of a Petty Officer. If you are having trouble understanding it, let me know -- I'll help you. You will improve in the near future. (And if you do this with the eyes that say, "I will set you ablaze right now" then it's even cooler).

Now, is "being stern" the best method? Normally, I'd say no. You'll get the occassional cadet who needs something like that though. As you are not arbitrarily applying a standard, or doing it in a manner unbecomming of the CCM, you are protected until CATO 24-01 Para. 17 (I think that's it....Go look it up).

CH

AMerrall

31st May 2005, 09:18

Ahhh, yelling, and 'being stern', are not interchangeable.

Yelling: YOU LITTLE CRAPHEAD, YOU ARE AN INSULT TO THIS PROGRAM!!!! WHY DON'T YOU TRY NOT SUCKING!! AHHHH!!!!! (at this point, I imagine shirts ripping, in the 'Incredible Hulk' kinda way...go ahead...picture it..)

Being Stern: PO Bloggins, your drill is not at the standard of required of a Petty Officer. If you are having trouble understanding it, let me know -- I'll help you. You will improve in the near future. (And if you do this with the eyes that say, "I will set you ablaze right now" then it's even cooler).

Now, is "being stern" the best method? Normally, I'd say no. You'll get the occassional cadet who needs something like that though. As you are not arbitrarily applying a standard, or doing it in a manner unbecomming of the CCM, you are protected until CATO 24-01 Para. 17 (I think that's it....Go look it up).

CH

Good response, Colin. On STGIII a Lt(N) decided to yell at me. I believe the phrase, "Listen here you little snot," was included. Do you think that earned my respoect? No, it did not.

Lt(N) Cyr is right in saying that yelling is for safety situations. It is not beneficial - EVER. In my opinion, someone who relies on yelling as a leadership style, needs to step back and re-evaluate said style before they lose all authority and repsect completely.

AMerrall

31st May 2005, 09:21

I'm sorry sir (or m'am) but frankly I don't see the problem with being stern and hard on Cadets.
Neither do I. What I do fail to see, is how yelling is a necessary part of 'overcoming adversity.'

PS - She's a Ma'am. ;)

Bos'n101

31st May 2005, 10:11

Ok...
Cadets is NOT a place where one should have to face adversity! I've faced and overcome my share of it outside cadets, and maybe its made me stronger...but mostly its just given me self-esteem issues. Cadets is a haven from such things(or should be). I agree that strict, stern leadership is needed in some circumstances, I myself have employed it for things such as drill(but NOT when teaching it!). BUT if one is finding that the CHAP Program is holding them back, then A) They don't know what CHAP is, or B) They don't know how to lead in the first place!
Obviously we are going to hold more experienced cadets to higher standards of DDD, but come on! That doesn't mean going nose to nose and projecting at them!
For the record, who are you? When did you graduate? If you spent your whole time in cadets under the CHAPP, then you couldn't have been in before 1999. What rank were you when you graduated, and in what capacity did you serve at your corps?
Just trying to get an idea of your perspective.

325coxn

31st May 2005, 10:18

I am a big advocate of "The 10 Commandments of Leadership", and especially 'Know Your Cadets'. I know that some cadets in my corps need to be dealt with a little more sternly, and some just need an evil stare to straighten up. The only time I yell at my cadets is during drill class. If I see a few cadets with thier arms not up high enough I'll just shout a general "Get your arms up!" If they dont get thier arms up I will use the cadets names so they know Im talking to them, and so everyone else knows as well. Some may see this as singling the cadet out, but they did that themself but doing the drill movement improperly.

Bos'n101

31st May 2005, 10:26

Generally I will let the cadets know beforehand that I do that, and explain so that they know I'm talking to them. (Sometimes they don't know they are doing it wrong)
I've never seen anyone have a problem with it.
But I never yell. There is a major contrast between yelling and projecting.

r031button

31st May 2005, 10:27

So you 'graduated' as a cadet who went through cadets under the current CHAP programme, and you feel you have an incredible amount of pride in your uniform and how you handle yourself on the parade square, because you were trained to a high standard. Got it. Kudos to your officers for being competent enough to balance the CHAP programme and deliver the cadet programme at the same time.

No M'am. I was refering to the training I recieve on my reserve BMQ, where excuses like "a bad year" or "individual differences" were not tolerated.

When I said I don't advocate yelling at a Cadet, I mean yelling at a Cadet. There is a difference between yelling to Cadets, and singling one out and calling them a "little snot" or some such.

For the record, what are the goals of the CCM? Physical Fitness, createing good citizens, and promoteing an interest in the military. I'm fairly certain the Brits have the same goals, if in different words. (not that I want to see 12yr olds doing live fire platoon attacks or anything like that)

I got out in May 2k4, I was a Sgt in the Colour party of 204 RCACS. Did I age out? No, I left when RMRang took me in. I noticed over my years in 204 that the drill and deportment standards dropped; and it was corresponding to the amount of pre CHAP NCO's left in the system. Those from the Pre CHAP era were alot more "hardcore" in ddd and I firmly believe in stems for a higher standard of disciplin being attained. But hey, that's just me.

Bos'n101

31st May 2005, 10:35

Lt(N) Cyr is female.
PROMOTE physical fitness, PROMOTE good citizenship, and PROMOTE interests in the applicable branch of the CF.
We aren't here to force them. How are you defining yelling? Are you meaning using a raised voice? Or, are you meaning what the rest of us define yelling as: emotion(generally anger) enduced raising of the voice, which is used to blast the cadets into submission, or scare them into doing things correctly?
It sounds like you're saying that cadets should live in fear of their leaders. Leadership by fear is no leadership at all!
If standards were down, why didn't you fix them? As a Sgt, that would be your responsibility. A good leader can adapt to the needs of their subordinates, and teach individuals differently.
Discipline is also the responsibility of the NCO's, primarily. Officers as well, but the NCO's are the front line. If you saw a problem at your corps, why did you not enlist your fellow NCO's to fix it?
And back to the matter of getting things out of the program...
How would you even know?!? I've done more in my cadet career than anyone from the pre-CHAP era that our oldest officer can remember! And thats going since 1981! Why? Because the cadet program gave me the confidence I needed to excel. Why? because when I joined, cadets was the one place in my life where I felt accepted. The only leaders who I've seen yell at their cadets, are the ones who I don't have any respect for. Not as a result of, just a pattern I've noticed. CHAP works.

AMerrall

31st May 2005, 10:36

When I said I don't advocate yelling at a Cadet, I mean yelling at a Cadet. There is a difference between yelling to Cadets, and singling one out and calling them a "little snot" or some such.

...there are certain times when yelling at a Cadet...can be benificial.
Now your changing your story. You clearly said that yelling at a cadet can be beneficial.

For the record, what are the goals of the CCM? Physical Fitness, createing good citizens, and promoteing an interest in the military. I'm fairly certain the Brits have the same goals, if in different words. (not that I want to see 12yr olds doing live fire platoon attacks or anything like that)
Please explain the relevance of the British Cadet Organization. Last I checked, we were in Canada. If you like the Cadet System in Britain, then move.

r031button

31st May 2005, 11:33

Now your changing your story. You clearly said that yelling at a cadet can be beneficial.

Please explain the relevance of the British Cadet Organization. Last I checked, we were in Canada. If you like the Cadet System in Britain, then move.

That was a refrence to defining Cadets as a youth organization, I was pointing out that an organization of a similar type, with similar goals, operates in a much different way.

Why is it that in a debeate about the Cadets system, you feel the need to attack my record? Honestly, I haven't made any personal refrences, and I feel I've tried to hold myself to some degree of professionalism. So why the hostility? Because I have a different opinion? Because I have a different view point? That's hardly a shinning example of how the CHAP program has turned out fine Canadian citizens.

If you want to get personal about this, fine we can do that, but if your ready to have a mature, intellectual convorsation, which I think everybody here would prefer, we can do that to.

Oh Bosn101, I referred to the Lt as M'am, I didn't know in my last post, sorry.

Bright Eyes

31st May 2005, 11:40

When I was an AC, I was on the drill team. We never would have won a competition, but we had fun doing drill and making up patterns. One day after a frustrating practice of imperfect turns our drill team officer took us outside, lined us against the wall of the building yelled at for 20 minutes. We were so lazy ... we were so dumb ... we were so undisciplined ... and basically we made every minute of this officer's life an agony. During the course of this lecture, 3 cadets (not little wimpy ACs either) were reduced to tears. After it was over, 2 cadets quit the team.

Was the overall drill of the team improved by this action? Yes. We were scared straight, so to speak. Would I employ similar tactics? Never. I think it was probably the worst experience of my whole cadet career.

It defies me how you feel that you cannot conduct a drill practice without excessive voice projection, belittleing cadets, or putting unnecessary physical stress on them. Educational psychology has changed. There are better ways to affect behaviour than through using negative reinforcement. In a negative reinforcement situation, cadets think, "If I do good, then I can avoid being yelled at." No one really likes being yelled at. A behavior (good drill) is strengthened by wanting to avoid a bad consequence (yelling). Yelling in this sense is intended to make a cadet feel bad about themselves and their actions. That only motivates people to do as well as you set your minimum "good enough not to get a lecture" standard. Many will not be motivated to do much more than that minimum just to avoid the consequences. I don't see how that can possibly create a high standard of drill because most people will only be motivated to do the bare minimum to get out of the bad consequence. There is nothing in it for them to do anything more than that, unless you start raising the standard and offer more negative consequences.

I've always followed a model of positive reinforcement. A behaviour (good drill) is strengthened by wanting to have a good consequence (praise). Instead of saying, "If you don't get this movement right, you'll have to keep doing it through your break" (negative) ... you would say, "If you get this right, I'll let you out early." I'd say, probably 8/10 times you'll get better results offering a reward. The key to this is to always be consistant. If they do bad and you let them out early anyway, you've just encouraged bad behaviour. That's when you introduce a punishment.

Punishment does not need to demean or belittle someone. I've always found it more effective to emphasize that they must do better to achieve a reward ... and that their poor performance is disappointing.

DaSilva

31st May 2005, 11:42

Well, im sure all of us that have posted in this thread are at a position where changes can be made.
1. If you find that the standards have dropped down in your unit, than change it. Organize a drill night, uniform night, sewing night etc. its endless on what u can do.
2. Everyone conplains, its a frequent act in our society... OH well just Think positive, as you need to look on the bright side of thing at all times.

Me, if i need to yell at them because their drill is not as proper as it should be especially if its just one cadet.... then i tell them in a loud voice to everyone...as a whole.... which creates a team effort in fixing the problem.

When my band doesnt sound so great i use the sandwich effect. GOOD-BAD-GOOD
you tell them what they have done correctly and tell them its great, then you tell them what they did wrong and how to fix it, then you tell them how this will affect it in a whole.

Some of us need to stop thinking like cadets, and doing what a leader should do. Most of the time if the cadet does not do something correctly it is because they were not taught correctly, so why punish them for that?? Take them aside and teach them the proper way, "Help them" instead of "punishing them"
everyone is equally human beings, lets start treating each other as ones.

Cadets are kids 12-19, they are all at a learning stage,... if as leaders we do not teach them.... well they won't know. No cadet is bad, cadets come first before our egos. And everything can be fixed....it can take 1 week or 1 year it is all possible.
ok im rambiling....but here is an example.

3 years ago i took over a band of 3. The squadrons moral towards the band was low. I motivated the cadets and created a standard to follow.. We now have 53 musicians in the squadron... this did not happen because i had an ego... it happened cause i always thought positive, any challenge that was brought.... i dealt with... The band is now motivated, can play a wide variety of music, and they always show up withought being asked. And that's because of the positive attitude.

The cadet program is beneficial.... don't punish them, just help them!
Cadets come 1st!!
We are here for them, not for us!

(sorry about the long message... just wrote what popped into my head)

Bos'n101

31st May 2005, 11:45

I noticed the reference to her as ma'am in your last post after I had editted, just didn't feel the need to go back. No need to be sorry, we all make mistakes.(wow, that cliche seems relevant...)

I'm not attacking your record, I'm simply stating that your point of view is flawed, and trying to figure out why you didn't make changes you felt were needed. Did you try?
In order to have a mature, intellectual conversation, one must be informed as to the subject matter. From some of the things you've said, I was questioning your knowledge of this area. Don't take it personally, more often than not this is a result of ones superiors not teaching properly.

r031button

31st May 2005, 11:50

Punishment does not need to demean or belittle someone. I've always found it more effective to emphasize that they must do better to achieve a reward ... and that their poor performance is disappointing.

I do agreee with you on alot of points. Do I think that negative renforcement is the only thing to use? No, I don't think I've ever said that, however; do I feel that it is a useful tool? Yes. Why? Because it encourages Cadets to not drop below the minimum standard, however, whats pulls Cadets above the standard is positive reinforcement, which should be more commonly used and should be the rule rather then the exception.

That being said, I think telling a 16-17 yr old Sgt of MCpl that if their 60 person Corp/Squadron is slacking, it's up to them to pick it up, is a bit ridiculous. Afterall we've said that Cadets are just kids. I've also been told it's all about Cadets first, aren't the NCO's Cadets? Shouldn't the system make the job of a 16yr old, who's being put is a positionof responsibility for the first time, easier?

Bos'n101

31st May 2005, 11:58

It is up to them. It is their job. Theirs, in cooperation with the rest of the NCO's, and the officers. True, the senior NCO's should be the backbone, but the junior NCO's are the front line. They are the ones who the cadets see most, and therefore the ones most able to effect change. The senior NCO's(ie-RSM, CSM, etc.) can lead most effectively through the junior NCO's because they can better reate to the junior cadets. But you're right. 1 NCO should not be expected to fix an entire corps, however, any NCO should try to fix a perceived problem.
No, it shouldn't be made easier by removing responsibility, it should be made easier by providing proper leadership training.

r031button

31st May 2005, 12:05

Bos'n101

31st May 2005, 12:08

No, it means that leaders from the transition period failed to adapt. I'll repeat myself, leadership by fear is no leadership at all.

Lt(N) Jean Cyr

31st May 2005, 12:09

Doesn't that mean the system is flawed?

I don't believe so. I believe that perhaps their particular unit may be experiencing problems, or maybe a lack of leadership.

J

Lt(N) Jean Cyr

31st May 2005, 12:13

r031button - I will throw you a bone ...I believe that when the CHAP programme was introduced that there was not enough alternative methods given to the senior cadets/officers to put in place of yelling screaming, belittling and going banshee.

As with anything new, there were stumbling blocks in the delivering of the CHAP programme. Now that the dust has settled, and MOST of those in positions of authority/power (whatever you want to call it) have figured out that you don't need to employ those archaic methods to get the point across.

Just like parenting has evolved over the years (I would never treat my children the way I was treated)...so has the CCM.

J

AMerrall

31st May 2005, 12:17

I didn't say removeing responsibilities. I meant that the system should be built to allow as many tools for NCO's as possible; that does include negative renforcement; and that does require proper training. Why is it that any change to the system is so feared? I mean honestly there are many NCO's on this board that are saying that their units are dorppin in Standards, and very few who are saying that it's going up. Doesn't that mean the system is flawed?
No it doesn't. It means that those NCOs obviously lack the direction and the leadership to do something about it. That is a problem with the NCOs - not the system.

The system is built to allow many tools for NCOs. My corps produces excellent NCOs, and we operate completly within the guidelines that CHAP sets out. Chief Hutchison is an incredible NCO and Coxswain. He doesn't violate CHAP, and is role model for his cadets. The tools that are availalbe to NCOs don't need to include this 'negative reinforcement' - you admit that its positive counterpart is better, yet you still reserve the right to use it. Where is the logic in that?

r031button

31st May 2005, 12:21

The tools that are availalbe to NCOs don't need to include this 'negative reinforcement' - you admit that its positive counterpart is better, yet you still reserve the right to use it. Where is the logic in that?

It's being realistic and realising that you need some good and some bad. What keeps your from dropping your standards if you ronly rewarded and never reprimanded.

This is a dead topic though, wel all know I'm not going to swing your opinions, and your probably not going to sweing mine, so let's let it die here before we get alittle to upset with each other.

Bos'n101

31st May 2005, 12:27

Reprimands should be reserved for behaviour, not mistakes. Why should a cadet be punished for the failure of a leader to teach properly?
Correction should never involve hurting your cadets.

AMerrall

31st May 2005, 12:30

It's being realistic and realising that you need some good and some bad. What keeps your from dropping your standards if you ronly rewarded and never reprimanded.
I would think that if your leadership is good enough, and your cadets are there because they want to be, then ideally you shouldn't need to reprimand. Very rarely do I ever have to. Of course there is the occasional quick correctional discussion, but nothing that is serious.

Why are you so eager to blame the system for what are quite obviously your problems? Ones that can be fixed, no less. The impression one gets from you, is that you simply aren't trying to change any of these alleged issues. Step up, and use some of your leadership training.

r031button

31st May 2005, 12:36

I would think that if your leadership is good enough, and your cadets are there because they want to be, then ideally you shouldn't need to reprimand. Very rarely do I ever have to. Of course there is the occasional quick correctional discussion, but nothing that is serious.

Why are you so eager to blame the system for what are quite obviously your problems? Ones that can be fixed, no less. The impression one gets from you, is that you simply aren't trying to change any of these alleged issues. Step up, and use some of your leadership training.

Of course I'm not trying to change it, I'm out. I posted that before when you asked for my history. I quit the kidy corp and joined the reserves. Makes it kinda hard to influence the Cadets now doesn't it? I hope that explains where I'm coming from, I've see n how Cadets are instructed, and how reservists are, I think the reservist system in superios, and that alot could be learned from it.

Lt(N) Jean Cyr

31st May 2005, 12:39

I quit the kidy corp and joined the reserves. Makes it kinda hard to influence the Cadets now doesn't it?

And yet you post on CADET-World.... kinda makes it hard for us to take you seriously, now doesn't it?

I hope that explains where I'm coming from, I've see n how Cadets are instructed, and how reservists are, I think the reservist system in superios, and that alot could be learned from it.

I hope you enjoy your time in the reserves.

J

AMerrall

31st May 2005, 12:40

Of course I'm not trying to change it, I'm out. I posted that before when you asked for my history. I quit the kidy corp and joined the reserves. Makes it kinda hard to influence the Cadets now doesn't it? I hope that explains where I'm coming from, I've see n how Cadets are instructed, and how reservists are, I think the reservist system in superios, and that alot could be learned from it.
Aah, I missed that. And no, it's not hard to influence Cadets. I have known of two corps at which reservists were volunteers. My Corps had a Private volunteering for us a couple years back. If you really wanted to, you could try and change this.

Two more things:

By your own admission, you quit, and from the sounds of it, you quit because you were unhappy with the standards. So you DID have the opportunity to change things.

Secondly, Cadets ARE instructed by reservists.

PS - I did not ask for your history.

r031button

31st May 2005, 12:44

Secondly, Cadets ARE instructed by reservists.

PS - I did not ask for your history.

I'm aware you didn't, I was referring to others. Also, I'll leave the instructed by reservists comment alone.

M'am, why does it make me hard to take seriously. If anything I'm exactly what Cadets should be promoting, I'm a university student, involved in politics, I play sports, and I'm a reservist. Is that not the ideal product of the Cadet system?

Also, I was an Air Cadet, I'm army now, so helping out with my Sqn is probly not going to happen. I was very unhappy with the Sqn and system as I, and the rest of the NCO's saw very veyr little suppor for use coming fromt he office. But that's my issues, not yours; so I'll leave it alone.

Bos'n101

31st May 2005, 12:44

The Reserves and the Cadets are 2 VERY different bowls of soup. If I recall correctly, I'm not planning to send my 12 year old OC into combat.

AMerrall

31st May 2005, 12:47

M'am, why does it make me hard to take seriously. If anything I'm exactly what Cadets should be promoting, I'm a university student, involved in politics, I play sports, and I'm a reservist. Is that not the ideal product of the Cadet system?
Excuse me? Exactly what Cadets should be promoting? Someone who thinks the system is flawed and isn't willing to do anything about it?

That is not the end to which I lead my cadets.

Bos'n101

31st May 2005, 12:47

You aren't giving enough information. Adolf Hilter was a highly decorated war hero, where Winston Churchill had an alchohol problem, and Roosevelt used narcotics(medicinal)

r031button

31st May 2005, 12:47

The Reserves and the Cadets are 2 VERY different bowls of soup. If I recall correctly, I'm not planning to send my 12 year old OC into combat.

I wasn't comparing the two, I was just saying that there is some good in the military system that could be applied to Cadets.

Anyways, we all know no good is coming out of this, so let's let this thread die.

Bright Eyes

31st May 2005, 12:47

r031button

31st May 2005, 12:51

AMerrall

31st May 2005, 12:53

And what exactly coudl I do about it? Considering I'm out of it, and that you can see the opinions of most of the people in the system. Sorry, but I don't see your point.
You COULD HAVE done something about when you were in it. OR you COULD volunteer NOW. I was a Sea Cadet, and an Army Private was at my Corps, who WAS a Sea Cadet. There is no elemental boundary stopping you here. If you are going to label the system as flawed, and then tell me you can't do anything about it, then Lt(N) Cyr was right - you can't be taken seriously.

Bos'n101

31st May 2005, 12:53

The point is that you were in a position to make a difference, but chose not to.

r031button

31st May 2005, 13:00

Really? You were there were you? I didn't see any Sea Cadets around. You don't know, therefore, don't act like you do. Like I said, nothing is being accomplished here, so let's let it die.

Bos'n101

31st May 2005, 13:05

...what are you even saying?! You said you were a Sgt, and Flag Party Commander. Therefore, you WERE in fact in a position to effect change in training, SINCE YOU GAVE THAT TRAINING!

r031button

31st May 2005, 13:08

I'm saying this thread is serving no purpose. I said I was in the flag party, not it's commander. Read my posts before you make comments. RIght now I don't feel ike having to correct somebody who admitably is incapable of finding any respect outside of Cadets; so let's let this thread die. I don't see why you need to keep on attack like this, is this what you've been taught, what's made you feel great about Cadets?

AMerrall

31st May 2005, 13:19

...what are you even saying?! You said you were a Sgt, and Flag Party Commander. Therefore, you WERE in fact in a position to effect change in training, SINCE YOU GAVE THAT TRAINING!
Peter's right, we are posting here based on information that you've previously given. Would you like a few minutes to get your story straight before we continue?

Let me recap my impression:

You were an Air Cadet, but saw problems with CHAP and leadership in your corps, from both Officers and NCOs. BUT, rather than using your position positively, you quit. THEN, you blame the system blindly. You also maintain that it is out of your hands, and that you can't influence cadets. Particularly, that you can't influence your Squadron because they are Air and you are Army. But, you still post on Cadet Forums, thus influencing cadets. However, that influence is negative, because all you do here is complain rather than see this as an opportunity to help fix these so-called problems.

Now, again, explain why you should be taken seriously?

Bos'n101

31st May 2005, 13:25

Incapable of showing respect outside cadets... interesting. I suppose thats why CWO Drouin, RSM of the Algonquin Regiment has so much respect for me, eh? You've been afforded the respect that you've earned by coming onto a site about the CCM(and other cadet organizations) and choosing to display your views without taking into consideration the fact that you might have been mistaken.
Ok, I misread 1 detail, but you were still a Sgt. Point stands.
I'm sorry if you feel attacked, but maybe if you lowered those defenses for a second and listened to what was being said, you'd see that we're attacking your arguments, not you. If you come onto a cadet forum with only so much cadet experience, and start condemning the system you should expect a some people to reply in the manner users have here. This is a debate, not an argument. In a debate, one must provide credible, believable arguments, you have not. You've said you were a Sgt in you Sqn, you've also said that you left in bad standing because of your views(thats how I read it anyway). And you said you were the ideal example for cadets?
Yes, Cadets has taught me to stand up for what is right. Leaving this thread seems to be a pattern like the one you have referred to with your unit. You don't like the way things are going, you run away.

Convince me I'm wrong.

r031button

31st May 2005, 13:38

Your calling me a coward? How is that benificial, and how does a thread like this reflect on the quality of this site? I postes quite a while ago, that nothing was happening, we were just argueing, so i said let's agree to disagree. You chose not to. I don't understand why, but you did. I don't feel the need to explain myself for acting like civilized, mature human being. And I'm frankly offended at being hounded by you two, who go on about how much better you are. Now i'm sorry, but I've been unable of convinceing you to my point of view for this entire thread, and vice versa, so why are you draggin this on? I mean honestly, is this some sort of a sick ego boost for you? Does it make you proud? Frankly this thread should have been locked a page ago, but it wasn't, and I don't understand that.

Also, I thought intelligent debeat, which stopped on what, page 2..3? Was trying to influence Cadets, I'm sorry that I'm busy with my own life and I don't have time to volunteer, and that I don't really want to. However, I thought maybe some inteligent debeate would interesting., Well you two have proved your colours, I hope your proud.

Oh also, you might have noticed this is in the Legion. Where ex-cadets post; so maybe I'm not the one out of place here.

AMerrall

31st May 2005, 13:54

. And I'm frankly offended at being hounded by you two, who go on about how much better you are. Now i'm sorry, but I've been unable of convinceing you to my point of view for this entire thread, and vice versa, so why are you draggin this on? I mean honestly, is this some sort of a sick ego boost for you? Does it make you proud? Frankly this thread should have been locked a page ago, but it wasn't, and I don't understand that.

Also, I thought intelligent debeat, which stopped on what, page 2..3? Was trying to influence Cadets, I'm sorry that I'm busy with my own life and I don't have time to volunteer, and that I don't really want to. However, I thought maybe some inteligent debeate would interesting., Well you two have proved your colours, I hope your proud.
OK...here it goes…

Neither one of us ever said we were better than you. I don’t think I’m better than you – I just prefer my leadership over yours. How dare you put words in my mouth.

This is a public forum, and so long as this thread remains professional, it should not be closed. Why don’t you go ask Lt(N) Cyr why she didn’t close it?

If you don’t want to commit time to fix your problems with the system, then you have absolutely no right to complain.

You obvioulsy have time to spend here...why not put it to good use, instead of criticizing what this site stands for?

AMerrall

31st May 2005, 13:58

A real leader faces the music, even when he doesn't like the tune.

I just found that relevant.

Good day.

Bos'n101

31st May 2005, 14:04

I'm challenging you to support your claims with something that doesn't collapse under the weight of your own arguments. I'd like to believe that you're someone whose view is oe which can be taken seriously, but I have seen nothing constructive. Given, you tried to justify your claims that yelling at, and making cadets feel bad was good leadership, but did you honestly expect that to hold?
I continued this thread in hopes of some sign of logical thought process in the arguments you've presented. I'd really like to if not understand your point of you, help you see that there are alternatives
I don't recall saying I was better than you. I used my personal experience to disprove your theories, if that what you mean, hardly the same thing.
You chose to keep posting too, by the way. If you really thought I was so below you in maturity and intelligence, why keep responding?
I was working on the assumption that I was talking to an equal, misinformed, but basically an equal. You make claims of being an intelligent person, I'll continue to assume you are, because I can't get an accurate image of you from over the internet.
With that assumption entered, your failure to produce a debate which holds water, then assuming that the world is harassing you for asking why you say these things, but refused to take action is insulting to me. That someone with measurable intelligence would choose not to use it, and actually consider what is being said is a problem.
Now, this post had some harsh things in it, thats just how I speak to people who insult me. But before you get offended, take the time to actually consider what is being said.

Foxtrot

31st May 2005, 21:51

Hi folks,

I have had a couple of complaints about this thread. The point got lost about a page ago!! Don't get me wrong, you are more than welcome to debate all you want...it's why we are here. However, there are things being said that are unneccessarry and they are getting petty, defensive, and just plain mean. So, I am going to lock this thread, at the request of other users to keep you all from tearing each other apart. I will open it a couple of days after you all take some time to rethink how you want things worded and the original idea behind the thread...if it continues, the whole thing is going to be deleted.

As the great meanie said "THE POINT IS TO DEBATE EACH OTHERS IDEAS, NOT TO ATTACK EACH OTHER"

So, take a deep breath, hug your pillow, take a bath, and go speak to the UHRA.....just kidding...seriously though...try not to let everything become a personal attack or a big gang fight....no rumbles in the forums. Syl gets mad when you make a mess.

Foxtrot

2nd June 2005, 22:29

Okay, as promised, I am re-opening this thread. I will be keeping an eye on it and it's posts. Either act like mature humans and chat nicely amongst yourselves....or I will be forced to act in an un-sunshiney way...

Play nice.

N. McKay

3rd June 2005, 03:37

My brother is a reservist. He explains their methods of discipline like this: "You listen to the first sentence they say ... "Your bed is a mess ..." and then they go on and on swearing and stuff. Only half listen because they're just running off at the mouth and cursing you down. Then, they'll tear your bed apart and say, "Do that over!" You say "yes sgt" and you're good."

Why do you even need the junk in the middle that is supposed to make you feel lower than toe dirt? I don't see that as constructive.

It should be noted that this is a feature of recruit-type courses, not the normal way of doing things throughout the Forces. Without going into the psychology of it all, part of the idea on these courses is to make clear that the member is entering a new world, where many of the social norms of civilian life no longer apply. In any kind of combat or quasi-combat situation, the rules are very different from what most of us are brought up with; Service members who might work in such a place need to be prepared for that.

Yelling at cadets? Sometimes. The fine line that eludes so many of us is between abuse and belittlement, and just making a point forcefully. I don't think there's anything wrong with barking at a cadet to "Quiet down!" when I'm talking to my division and one of them starts whispering to his neighbour in the back rank. Some cadets just won't respond to anything less forceful. The momentary shock of a normally mild-mannered officer speaking somewhat harshly has a useful effect not to be disregarded.

But like many things the more you use it the less it works. Yell once a year and it will likely get you the result you want; do it every week and people just think you're nuts.

There also has to be care taken in what you're saying. "Quiet down!" is one thing; "Shut that ugly hole in the middle of your putrid pimple-ridden face!" is quite another and clearly is a bit much.

Like so many other things, it's a tool to keep in your toolbox, only to be taken out when really needed, and to be used with great care. Like a circular saw, it can do a job very well or it can cut off your fingers.

Bright Eyes

3rd June 2005, 03:59

Like so many other things, it's a tool to keep in your toolbox, only to be taken out when really needed, and to be used with great care. Like a circular saw, it can do a job very well or it can cut off your fingers.
Brilliant! (As usual. ;) )

Kortytoh

3rd June 2005, 05:43

Yelling (or projecting...whatever) has the useful effect of conveying to a cadet the urgency and importance of a situation. It also creates stress, which can be greatly beneficial, if applied and dealt with properly.

Now, as for negative reinforcement -- yes, it develops avoidance. The cadet will avoid the leader because they are afraid of making a mistake and getting yelled at. But within its limits, negative reinforcement is just as useful as any other type of feedback. Could it not be said -- and it is said-- that positive reinforcement develops dependency? It all depends on how you use the leader's trifecta of positive reinforcement/negative reinforcement/punishment.

Yeah, I just said that so I could use the word "trifecta"

In any case, I would suggest that you look at a prime example of leadership in one of the most stressful and performance-oriented situations: athletic coaching. Top-level coaches use positive and negative reinforcement freely and achieve impressive results. Not taking a cue from this real-world example of leadership theory put into practice would be foolish.

Lt(N) Jean Cyr

3rd June 2005, 06:08

In any case, I would suggest that you look at a prime example of leadership in one of the most stressful and performance-oriented situations: athletic coaching. Top-level coaches use positive and negative reinforcement freely and achieve impressive results. Not taking a cue from this real-world example of leadership theory put into practice would be foolish.

That's a very good point. I've been working lately with more than one top level coach and at first I have to admit I was taken aback by the seemingly softer approach, but I sat back and watched...I was very pleased with the results I was witnessing and how the cadets were responding.

I firmly believe the CCM should continue moving forward, and as you say, take some cues from the real-world examples out there :)

J

Ching

3rd June 2005, 06:49

etowncadet

3rd June 2005, 07:41

I was actually taught a BRILLIANT trick by an elementary school prinicipal, but I'd never realized I actually used it until he told me. When you are teaching, talking, etc... and a cadet starts doing something... you don't necessarily need to stop your speech/lesson to get their attention. Continue on, but make direct eye contact. Keep this eye contact until the cadet stops. Many, many times my cadets have told me that they feel this inner "crap... I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing" as I give them that stare. Don't go all "The New Guy" whipped stare, but dead face with a slight "I am not amused" look. If that method doesn't work, simply stop talking. Cadets will realize that something is going on, and look up. If that doesn't work, just simply say their name in your sentence, or even better ask them a question. it ie. "The aileron goes up, and cdt. bloggins how does the aircraft respond?". Another good idea is to tell the cadet what you want them to do. ie. "Cdt, please pay attention to the airplane in front of you. It has whirly blades of death on it. I don't want a lot of paperwork". ok... so maybe I've used that one before... but a better example would simply be "cadet, please pay attention to the PO while they are tying these sheers, it's an essential skill."... Again, all of these are practical and you're not yelling. They are way more effective too.

In some isolated situations, the CHAP program has gone out of limits. IE. I had a friend (who happens to be a SHARP and CHAP trained CI with CIC paperwork already in, and 7 years of cadets under the belt) drop by on a training night to pick up her banquet tickets. We were talking, and we high-fived at some point during the conversation. Immeadiately, a volunteer (who has been with the sqn forever), came over and instructed my friend that she should not touch a cadet. This quizzed me beyond belief. However, this has been a rather isolated incident. I joined in Sep 98, back just before the CHAP program, but within 6 months we had it. I don't remember a single yelling incident during that 6 months because it wasn't effective. I remember the lessons I was taught on my first night by a caring sgt. As long as you take cadets "under your wing", and instruct them on your expectations, there is no need to even try and push the CHAP limit. The most effective leaders are the ones who "know the way, go the way and show the way". Not yell.

Bos'n101

3rd June 2005, 12:22

Foxtrot

4th June 2005, 22:45

Well said! :) No problem...that is why we have staff.
And thank you, I am glad there are no hard feelings. :)

AMerrall

5th June 2005, 15:19

Now that this thread has been re-opened, I would also like to extend my apologies. Nothing I said was meant ot be offensive, but intent is not what matters here. My apologies, also, the person who started this thread, for being part of the hyjacking...

Bos'n101

7th June 2005, 18:15

To be fair, I have noticed a difference in the standards of training of semi-recent cadets. The group immediately after my own, trained by the one immediately preceding it. Those right before me were effected by the transition from old to new, and thus didn't really know how to teach in the new system. So the group they trained(at the time, phase 4 was taught by officers, so they didn't train my group) hasn't had all that great of training either. However, the group after them, trained by my group is showing enormous promise! So if this is indicative, it may be a passing phase.

F/Sgt. Steele

18th June 2005, 15:14

Haha! Way to bring Hitler into the conversation. :p

My brother is a reservist. He explains their methods of discipline like this: "You listen to the first sentence they say ... "Your bed is a mess ..." and then they go on and on swearing and stuff. Only half listen because they're just running off at the mouth and cursing you down. Then, they'll tear your bed apart and say, "Do that over!" You say "yes sgt" and you're good."

Why do you even need the junk in the middle that is supposed to make you feel lower than toe dirt? I don't see that as constructive.

just back tracking a bit here, and butting my head into the thread...

i remember hearing form somewhere that in the transition from civilian to member of the forces in basic training and the usage of explatives to break the person down, is kind of like a baptism of fire. It shows you that you're no longer in the outside world, and that the sgt almost owns you. So, it's a(n) expression of dominace/ demand for respect. it's the same with shaving everyone's head, and once you start getting a hang of this new world, you can grow your hair back and your superiors will hopefully start praising you.

tear 'em down, and build em back up; psychological modification.

But, as i think we all know, this doesn't work for cadets as they still lead largely civilan lives. we can't give them this baptism of fire, only bits at a time every schedualed cadet night and on exercises. the only time they're tottaly emersed in the 'military' environment is at camp. Even that isn't long enough.

As i see it, there's not much of a consequance for not following the rules. what's the worst that will happen, get kicked out? criminal charges? well, I don't know of many of the young punks that i've encoutered and disiplined that were scared of being get kicked out, or going to jail. heck, some had already been to juvi.

Alas, sometimes going to their parents will do the trick... but then again, the senior cadets (as i know it) aren't really alowed to talk to the parents concerning the cadets, that's the officers 'job'.

I think the thing that leaves a bad taste in everybody's mouth is that the system doesn't have teeth. if we could hold the cadets accountable like the reserves( pressing charges for deminors, etc)in a military court than i would
be forever happy. alas, the system is now a civilian entitiy supported by the forces.

*sigh*

wait, did i just repeat some of what Mackay said? oops.