Iraqi torture??

[lord_rupert]

News Clip (http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/video/40099000/rm/_40099113_prisoners22_frei_vi.ram)

What do you think??

ROO

[Chantelle Browning]

what is the world comeing to? do we not have any compassion? that video made me sick!!! Where did you get it?

[lord_rupert]

BBC News site from CBS report originally. It is shocking isn't it.
The commander has been suspended

ROO

[jgoguen]

Don't suppose you happen to have a corresponding story, or maybe another file format for the video? My media player doesn't seem to like it...

EDIT: Nevermind, I found two stories. Totally disgusting. And what's with the soldier claiming he never saw the Geneva Convention regulations on POWs? I don't know what they do for basic training, but I know when I did my BOTC, and a friend of mine who's a NCM with PPCLI on hos basic, had a full lecture on the Geneva Conventions, both for POWs and civilians, and the rest of the Convention too. And we did the Hague Convention. And he said they never had training and they weren't given rules and regulations...and the BGen there couldn't figure it out for himself?? Don't you need just a little leadership and common sense to make it that high up? As far as I'm concerned, they have no excuse at all for the way they've treated those people.

[lord_rupert]

How would we feel if foreign soldiers treated any of our citizens like that??
Exactly

ROO

[wb256]

Well, let's look at the Iraq track record here. No WMD's found. Now both Islamic sects are rebelling (despite the fact that they claimed that one wanted the USA there). I guess they stopped Saddam from torturing people...but now they're doing the exact same thing.

To quote the Hives "hate to say I told you so"

[TWoyma]

As for the guards' claims of never having seen the Geneva Convention, I have a feeling they're trying to shift all the blame from themselves to their chain of command.

I find it hard to believe that trained, professional Miltary Policemen and women would not be familiar with all the international treaties relating to POWs. Even without knowing international treaties, at least one of the guards being charged is, of all things, a prison guard in his civillian life. If these guards truely are not familiar with the international treaties, then they are grossly untrained and unfit for their duties; if they are, they're lying. I have a feeling it's the latter.

Either way, it's a sad, sad state of affairs.

[M Lambert]

i have 2 words:

1) bloody

2) hell

[lord_rupert]

I find it hard to believe that trained, professional Miltary Policemen and women would not be familiar with all the international treaties relating to POWs.

Exactly - even in OTC I had to learn the specifics of this and I think its existence should be common knowledge anyway.

ROO

[Meathead]

Im gonna guess that if thery are saying they have never seen the Geneva convention they must by lying through there teeth. Stuff like that really urks me to no extent.

[M. Ward]

Even if they hadn't heard of all this, one would think that a soilder in the forces of a country like the US would know better then to do this. It disgusts me. It really does.

[M Lambert]

im not even in the army and i know its against the UN, EU, and numerous other thingies conventions! as if they didnt. its probably a case of "im ****** off because you got me out here to help you and now youre trying to kill me, and you think youre going to get away with it because of our laws, well lets see if us yanks are as nice as you think eh"

[condor888000]

That's distugusting!

[piper]

Sad, very very sad and pathetic. There are very, very few things that would call for treatment like that of any sort. And being a POW is not. Another blow for the Americans, and, again, their own fault.

[jgoguen]

if they are, they're lying. I have a feeling it's the latter. And either way, they're unfit for duty. Either they don't know what they're supposed to, or they can't accept responsibility for their own actions. Neither is something I'd look for in a professional soldier...or anyone doing their job for that matter. As for lying/not accepting responsibility, that's just not acceptable for anyone. If you can't stand up and take responsibility for what you're doing, then don't do it. That simple.

[wb256]

Does one really need orders to tell them that allowing the photographing of rape is not a good idea?

[condor888000]

Does one really need orders to tell them that allowing the photographing of rape is not a good idea?

Guess so. But it is a goood thing that they allowed it. The military has concrete proof for a court-martial!

[aduff]

Its yet another embaressment for the US forces. They have showed themselves to be both an inadequate fighting force and peacekeepers.

[wb256]

Guess so. But it is a goood thing that they allowed it. The military has concrete proof for a court-martial!


An even better plan of action may have been not raping POW's in the first place.

I've always believed that, as a general rule, raping someone is not proper conduct. But then again, that's just me.

[condor888000]

True, but since they were stupid enough to do this, they were also atupid enough to incriminate themselves.

[CadetJeff]

These "US Soldiers" are going to be eaten alive when they get home. Even I as a CAP Cadet get training in what rights I have/don't have by way of our Cadet Protection Policy (which, we don't have to worry about combat). So, I will cheer when they are burned for this. Our military spends so much time training in this, that I can tell you they are lying. I know personnel that are reserve/active and they can tell you of the hours and days spent training on the Geneva Conventions. These soldiers should have "treason" slapped on them with insubordination (and this goes for that BGen) and hung for stupidity. The US is supposed to have the most professional military in the world. And these few idiots go and mess up it up for the rest of us. {End rant}

Anyways, I would have hated to have been the General that called to take over for the outgoing BGen that is being let go. The incoming guy had to leave what I would figure to be nice quarters at Guantanamo for that pile of dust, being that he was the military commander of Guantanamo (sp?). "Yes, General. This is ------- speaking. We have a new assignment for you..."

[Wood]

Its rather disgusting, but not really shocking. No matter what the good intentions of the US is that prison intentionally ignores the rule of law, whether its Iraq, the Soviet Union or Cuba, things like this happen without the procedural half of law to back up the substantive.

I sincerely hope those "terrorists" recieve some due process and are taken away from that place as soon as possible.

[CadetJeff]

Its rather disgusting, but not really shocking. No matter what the good intentions of the US is that prison intentionally ignores the rule of law, whether its Iraq, the Soviet Union or Cuba, things like this happen without the procedural half of law to back up the substantive.

I sincerely hope those "terrorists" recieve some due process and are taken away from that place as soon as possible.

Agreed, things happen in combat zones that shouldn't happen. But still, I personally wouldn't mind being the JAG that gets to prosecute this case. Not too hard to collect evidence (or witnesses) and you get to serve justice on someone that abused the job they were given. (If you can't tell, I've considered being a JAG in one of the branches of the US military.) And the reason many Americans are mad is that this is the sort of thing our military is NOT supposed to do. Not going after the human rights debate (although a major part of this discussion), but the system of the US military was that this shouldn't have happened to begin with. But there are always those few stupid people that make it through, regardless of organization...

[Wood]

I was just watching a CNN interview, this sounds a lot worse than originally thought. Apperently this isn't the first report of abuse, and there seems to be some evidence that the intelligence community may have promoted this behavior.

[the_kingy]

And now there's us Brits possibly doing similar things.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3679177.stm

[Earlam]

The US is bringing this stuff on themselves.
The sad part is that they don't seem to realize it.

Here's a story I doubt has broken in the US.
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/05/04/world/cdn_iraq_suit040504

Torturing, deporting, detaining (without due-- wait, without any process) people left and right..... They're practically bombing themselves.

[JGallagher]

How about this. Hire profesional Correctional Officers. They are no different then regular prisnors. Treat them right and they will cooperate.

[WO2 Mandal]

After seeing those pictures, what is going to stop another person like Osama Bin Laden, or Bin Laden himself from recreating the feelings felt on 9/11.

[TWoyma]

How about this. Hire profesional Correctional Officers. They are no different then regular prisnors. Treat them right and they will cooperate.

Sadly enough, at least one of the MPs accused *is* a corrections officer in civillian life.

[wb256]

All I can say is, something very bad will come of this. I'm scared being this close to the USA.

(however, this dosn't mean I'm going to let fear effect my political opinions and give up my liberties, like so many have)

[TWoyma]

All I can say is, something very bad will come of this.

Court marshals all around, I say!

[CadetJeff]

Court marshals all around, I say!

And then we hang them.

[wb256]

I didn't mean bad like that. I mean bad like another 9/11.

After something like this, it won't be hard to recruit more people for Al Quada. All of those photos are instant propaganda for their cause, showing that the USA has no respect for Arabs or Islam at large.

It's another thing to throw on the list of percieved indignities the west has placed upon the Islamic world (from the crusades to collonization to meddling in their politics). I'm not saying that this justifies a terrorist attack, I'm saying that some will try to use it to justify one.

[CadetJeff]

It's another thing to throw on the list of percieved indignities the west has placed upon the Islamic world (from the crusades to collonization to meddling in their politics). I'm not saying that this justifies a terrorist attack, I'm saying that some will try to use it to justify one.

Whoa. I agree that it will be easier for our enemies to recruit. Great, well just have more choice of who to pick off and be sure of it. And I know a lot of injustices have been done. But the crusades were the Catholic Church before the US was started. Colonization issue began with the UK. And meddling in politics...well, that does include France and Germany just as much as my country (and I'm just pointing out that everyone holds similar shares in that one). Here (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=679&e=6&u=/usatoday/olddangersloomincurrentiraqconflict) is a good article on the history of the Iraq conflict. There was something else along this subject I found, but I don't remember the URL for it at the moment. If I find it, I'll put it up here. Summary is that European forces would just pay off Muslim attackers to keep them away from ships they would attack anyways. The US arrived on the scene and said, "No, we won't submit to this sort of threat." And that was at the time of Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin. So, really, the problems stem back further than they should.

YMMV with this...

(And I still want to see these "soldiers" get what they deserve. Even if it means a short drop and a sudden stop.)

[wb256]

Whoa. I agree that it will be easier for our enemies to recruit. Great, well just have more choice of who to pick off and be sure of it. And I know a lot of injustices have been done. But the crusades were the Catholic Church before the US was started. Colonization issue began with the UK. And meddling in politics...well, that does include France and Germany just as much as my country (and I'm just pointing out that everyone holds similar shares in that one). Here (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=679&e=6&u=/usatoday/olddangersloomincurrentiraqconflict) is a good article on the history of the Iraq conflict. There was something else along this subject I found, but I don't remember the URL for it at the moment. If I find it, I'll put it up here. Summary is that European forces would just pay off Muslim attackers to keep them away from ships they would attack anyways. The US arrived on the scene and said, "No, we won't submit to this sort of threat." And that was at the time of Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin. So, really, the problems stem back further than they should.

YMMV with this...

(And I still want to see these "soldiers" get what they deserve. Even if it means a short drop and a sudden stop.)


You're reffering to Algiers (a city in Algeria). It's corsair fleet ruled the mediteranean and everyone (including the USA) paid tribute to them, least their merchant ships be sunk. However, this has little to do with the Islam vs The West conflict.

The USA is the one being attacked because they're "the crown jewl" of the west. They represent Modern Capitalism. However, you're not the only target (look at Spain). I realize this mess isn't entirely your fault (WTO agreements amoung other things ARE the fault of the USA - along with interfering in Middle Eastern Politics), but it's stuck in your lap.

Now, these recent developments (beating the prisoners, etc) are going to result in a lot more anti-western hatred, and a lot more of it directed at the USA alone.

It's great that your enemies will be able to recruit easier? I think that's the most heartless and awful thing I've ever heard. It's great that more would be innocent people get killed? It's great that this cycle of hatred continues?

Oh well, I guess it'll give more reason to put more $$ towards the American military.

[Tomtom]

It's great that your enemies will be able to recruit easier? I think that's the most heartless and awful thing I've ever heard.


I believe he simply forgot the {!} at the end of that statement.

[The Blue Tory]

I find it ironic that asides from the WMD bull, President Bush and Bush Sr, wanted to remove Saddam because of the torture of people... Wait, wasn't that one of the same reasons Clinton went after Milosevic?

[Wood]

I find it ironic that asides from the WMD bull, President Bush and Bush Sr, wanted to remove Saddam because of the torture of people... Wait, wasn't that one of the same reasons Clinton went after Milosevic?

But the difference that the red cross has acknoledge has to do with timing. The major human rights cases that the US is propogating as its reasons for attacking took place well over a decade ago (2 decades? Wow, I'm getting old...) and were not dealt with by the US at the time. The Red Cross said that while they support military action to stop current human rights issues it does not recognize retributive wars for previous acts.

Not to mention that he doesn't have much credibility anymore if the purpose of this war was to end torture. Let's see both Saddam and the US are infamous for their arbitrary arrests (some soldiers believe this accounts for 70-90% of the total people arrested). Unreasonable force and searchs, check marks go to both sides, torturing and inhumane prison conditions, more checks...

They have food and water now.... but they also have an unpredictable future and chaos. Sometimes nations evolve the way they do for a reason, democracy just might not work in Iraq.

[CadetJeff]

I believe he simply forgot the {!} at the end of that statement.

Sheesh, thanks for pointing that out Warren. I did forget the sarcasim mark. Personally, I just want to see my countries enemies eliminated. And, even though I forgot the sarcasim mark, let me explain what my statement meant.

There was a quote by a General (don't remember what war) as he and his troops were being surrounded. He sarcastically made the comment of, "Good, now we don't have to worry about the direction we fire in." That's where I based my comment and meant for it to mean the same thing. I apologize for that and didn't even realize that until I read the post I quote. Please understand the meaning that I just want to see my country's enemies eliminated. (*Note to self, just a life and stop the sarcasim.*) This isn't the first time I've forgotten to specify myself... :eek:

[frammy]

fake pictures fake pictures

the MOD vehicle on one picture had a number plate(licence plate) of a vehicle that is in the uk and has not even left the country

nuff said on that

[condor888000]

How do you know this?