CI Glider Pilots

[whitefang]

recently, i've heard that in central region, CI's are no longer allowed to fly gliders. is this true? if it is, why so and is it just central region?

[WO1 Lewis]

That news would probably come as a shock to the multiple CIs flying with EOGC.

There are no more CI glider INSTRUCTORS at CRGS though. The reasons aren't fully known to me, but my assumption is that it is likely part of the larger push that is going on to increase the military aspect of CRGS and bring it away from looking like a civvy flying school.

[KarlSchultz]

I am pretty sure its because they want to start employing the Officers who can to do it. I know at Penhold last summer ALL the CI's had their CIC paper work going through.

I think the CI's that are flying right now with zones will be able to continue to fly however everyone else that wants to join will have to go CIC.

Again, just what I've heard so it could be wrong.

:air:

[sgt4life]

I know at Penhold last summer ALL the CI's had their CIC paper work going through.
...except in MTW. Which is where 99.9% of the CI's in Penhold were.

[whitefang]

I am pretty sure its because they want to start employing the Officers who can to do it.

so it's not just central then?

[Cadpat Sailor]

Is there any way for a CIC officer to get a glider or power licence through cadets? If I join air, I would like to do that, either through a civvie club or if possible through the gliding school.

[Craiglette]

ok, a little scared. I'm a CI at a zone, haven't heard anything about this. Plus that would be stupid... we would lose our awesome tow pilots.. like WTB!!!! I don't plan on doing my paperwork for a while, so that would suck..... ahhh

oh catalyst - you can't if you're an officer, need to be an air cadet. you can always do it on your own though, and depending on the glider zone you can fly with them after some checkouts. (if you get glider at a civi club)

[Cadpat Sailor]

I'm short - I can pose as a cadet :D

I'm thinking of doing that once (if) I join them..I know there's a civi club around, itll take me a while...but its going to be a little project of mine

[WO1 Lewis]

Is there any way for a CIC officer to get a glider or power licence through cadets? If I join air, I would like to do that, either through a civvie club or if possible through the gliding school.

Getting a power licence via CIC is a tricky one... although getting the power to glider conversion course is quite possible. An officer this summer at CRGS was a power pilot and staffing with the Into to aviation course; at the end of the summer she took conversion course (via CRGS) which gave her a glider pilot's licence useable with the air cadet glider program.

A strictly civilian glider pilot's licence isn't good enough for the Air Cadet Gliding Program since we have higher standards than the civillian world- you require a conversion course anyways. It may be best to look into paying your way through power and then trying to get your glider licence through the CIC.

[<Pilot_in_Command>]

That news would probably come as a shock to the multiple CIs flying with EOGC.

There are no more CI glider INSTRUCTORS at CRGS though. The reasons aren't fully known to me, but my assumption is that it is likely part of the larger push that is going on to increase the military aspect of CRGS and bring it away from looking like a civvy flying school.

Another rumour which I heard (I think this one might be true because it does seem how Cadets would operate) is because of insurance reason. CIC is covered under one set of insuranec which CIs are not. In order for them to be employed at a CSTC they require insurance thus CIs will require to apply for insurance which they normally would be covered under if they were CIC (thus making it more expensive).

It is not unheard of for CIs to be glider instructors though. I know that you can't be a to CI and be a TP though. I know that CI (now Ocdt/2lt?) JinJoe and CI Fesuic from RGS(pra) are, well... CIs.

[trevor]

That doesn't make a lot lot of sense. Over here in Pac region, C.I.'s are hired for skills that they already have.

[Craiglette]

It is not unheard of for CIs to be glider instructors though. I know that you can't be a to CI and be a TP though. I know that CI (now Ocdt/2lt?) JinJoe and CI Fesuic from RGS(pra) are, well... CIs.
says who???? I can name 2 right off the top of my head. Did you ever meet Mr. Dale Campbell??? He's one of Gimli's tow pilots and he tows at RGS. Mr Haddie Coates is another of our CI Tow Pilots.

[DA Wright]

says who???? I can name 2 right off the top of my head. Did you ever meet Mr. Dale Campbell??? He's one of Gimli's tow pilots and he tows at RGS. Mr Haddie Coates is another of our CI Tow Pilots.

The current policy is that CIs can only be hired in training positions where they are directly training cadets. A tow pilot is not directly training cadets, they are simply an equipment operator in a support role. It was, however, successfully challenged that a CI can be hired in the role of a tow pilot if it can be demonstrated that it would not be possible to otherwise train the cadets. In other words, a CI can only be employed as a tow pilot out of necessity, where not hiring the CI would mean nobody else to fly the tow aircraft; a CI can not be hired out of choice.

[KarlSchultz]

If Iam not mistaken that is because they may be taking the job of a CIC Officer?

Mhhhhhh.. I know there is a CI at my zone who is 1. A great asset, 2. more then qualified to be a tug pilot

however they are unable for some reason to do it for him.

:air:

[AntiKev]

Alright...here's the deal, straight from the horse's mouth...

CI's will be allowed to do instructor course and instruct in the summer provided that their CIC paperwork is in the process of being processed. I would know. I'm in that boat, as is my girlfriend. We both have our contracts, and joining instructions already.

L.Col. VanH has mandated that there won't be any CI's in central region that aren't becoming CIC officers.

[Flying Fox]

A strictly civilian glider pilot's licence isn't good enough for the Air Cadet Gliding Program since we have higher standards than the civillian world.

You're kidding right?

Take your air cadet wings to ANY Civilian Gliding Club in Canada, tell them you're trained to a 'higher standard' than their students and listen to them laugh.

Generally, the Civy world trains new glider pilots to a much higher standard, before allowing the issue of a glider pilot license.

Air Cadet glider pilots are licensed when they meet the bare minimum transport canada requirements... something that you will rarely, if ever, see in the civilian world.

If you have a glider pilot license earned through training at a civilian club, your skills will 99% of the time meet ACGP requirements. The 'ACGP Conversion Course' is designed to 'check you out' on the 2-33 and get you familiar with the 'structure' present in ACGP Ops.

[The Brick]

Actually, the standards are the same. At the end of your training (be it at RGS or a civvie centre) you have achieved the standard when you are presented your license.
The quality of training may differ however, and here there are a few things to keep in mind. First, when you train with the ACGP, and then stay with that program, you are responsible for a certain type of mission: familiarization. This means that you must be able to fly circuits well, and this is where the focus of the training quality is.
On civvie street, and Kyle feel free to correct me on this, but the focus is more on soaring and upper air work. Bear in mind also, that the RGS's are on a time frame, whereas at a civvie club you fly at your own pace (relatively speaking).

[KarlSchultz]

differ however, and here there are a few things to keep in mind. First, when you train with the ACGP, and then stay with that program, you are responsible for a certain type of mission: familiarization. This means that you must be able to fly circuits well, and this is where the focus of the training quality is.


When we fly fam at my zone we have time limits that we must keep in mind. Most of the time, when flying on tow we have to beat our tug down. Which means for example, I launch, the tug comes down, picks up the next glider and then takes off, I then have to beat that tug down so that I can have a new cadet strapped in and we are just waiting for the tow plane. This often limits us to a 20 minute flight.

Winching we do the same. You have to beat the retrieve truck back though. so say 10-15 minute flight max.

I went to a civie club one weekend thinking about getting ivolved. I signed up for a fam flight in a 2 place soaring glider and was told I'd have to wait til it got back. It didn't come back til the end of the day and then they wanted to pack up and just said "Sorry". :p

So from what I've seen, definatly two very different focuses.

[Flying Fox]

Actually, the standards are the same... On civvie street, and Kyle feel free to correct me on this, but the focus is more on soaring and upper air work.

The glider pilot license training at civilian clubs is fundamentally the same as within the ACGP. The civilian world takes more time to elaborate on 'soaring' techniques, but to my experience, also requires a greater deal of pilot proficiency (with regard to the fundamentals) prior to flight-test/license issue.

In the majority of cases, the civilian world believes the transport Canada standards for the issuance of a glider pilot license to be lacking. This opinion isn't formed exclusively with reference to the Air Cadet Gliding Program, but also to international standards within the sport and our 58 years of experience, knowing what it takes to make a safe and proficient glider pilot. It is the widely held belief that a pilot should have a high degree of expertise prior to holding the wide ranging, "All Gliders." transport Canada certification.

As case in point, you can look at the very high degree of supervision that newly licensed air cadet glider pilots require in order to maintain a safe operation. 'Club' pilots, on the other hand, often have more time logged when they take their flight-test than ACGP instructors have when they start teaching. These licensed civilian pilots are proficient enough to operate with little supervision. When I say that civilians are usually 'licensed to a higher standard' this is what I refer to.

ACGP is good at achieving its mission; the best gliding program for youth in the world. I in no way advocate changing the focus or training of the ACGP, but I hope to quash the proud notion that RGS graduates are in some way superior to their civilian counterparts.

We can all serve to learn from one another… “Pride” is a barrier to such learning.

Since I started flying in the civy world 3 years ago, they have learned some lessons from ACGP: there is an initiative to use a 1-4 proficiency scale to grade the performance of our students, similar to the way ACGP uses blue/white/etc cards. As well, a more structured curriculum is being instituted in order to give students the most efficient training.

I must stand by my initial post: civilian trained glider pilots have a lot to offer the ACGP if they are interested in helping the cadet organization. They often have skills and experience that can benefit the ACGP mission: thinking that their training is in some way sub-standard is a fallacious assumption.