Native American Plight

[Juice]

Hey guys, this is kinda brought over from a different thread in this forum, but I was just wondering what you guys think of the way Native Americans have been treated over the past few centuries, and if we, as descendants of those who booted them off their land, should do anything to help right the wrongs of the past.

[Loyal Edmonton]

Hey guys, this is kinda brought over from a different thread in this forum, but I was just wondering what you guys think of the way Native Americans have been treated over the past few centuries, and if we, as descendants of those who booted them off their land, should do anything to help right the wrongs of the past.

What do i think eh? well aside from the tax breaks they recieve the money the government throws at them, the free education (and might i add bonus's for going to school) life for them is sooo hard :rolleyes: heres an example one time after they got a big cheque from the government the whole reserve went into my town and bought out i repeat bought out the honda dealership. also it is not uncommon to hear natives celebrating in the halls of my school that its cheque day and they can go and buy weed!


such hard lives :mad:

[Juice]

Sure, but is that enough, considering Europeans came over, ripped their lives away from them, took their land and forced them to live in poverty? I personally dont think so.

And the ones you mention, about buying weed with their cheques are only a part of the whole Native group. And yeah, they do have it tough, maybe not wiht money, but I think they suffer a great disservice in the way they are treated and the stereotypes that come forth. It just hurts to see that we are still feeling the consequences of the mistakesof our ancestors. Paying them off isnt enough to fix the mistakes of what happened in the past. There is no recognition of anything done wrong, and thats the problem.

[Loyal Edmonton]

Sure, but is that enough, considering Europeans came over, ripped their lives away from them, took their land and forced them to live in poverty? I personally dont think so.

I THINK IT IS!!! geez they ALWAYS complain about wanting to be equal .. you know what i say let em be equal take away their reserves and their huge money for drugs and toys (which i might add have come close to killing people here because they drive drunk and on crack) and let them try and get a job like the rest of us! hah plight my ***! i am sure that todays natives (around here) wouldnt even know about the hudsons bay company and all of the history

[Juice]

I THINK IT IS!!! geez they ALWAYS complain about wanting to be equal .. you know what i say let em be equal take away their reserves and their huge money for drugs and toys (which i might add have come close to killing people here because they drive drunk and on crack) and let them try and get a job like the rest of us! hah plight my ***! i am sure that todays natives (around here) wouldnt even know about the hudsons bay company and all of the history

Just like so many other people dont know of the history either.

[Loyal Edmonton]

Just like so many other people dont know of the history either.

yes because they choose not too or its not important enough an issue for them to bother with.

[Juice]

yes because they choose not too or its not important enough an issue for them to bother with.

And THATS another problem. Indivisualism. Only worry about what directly affects ME. Another European invention.

[Loyal Edmonton]

And THATS another problem. Indivisualism. Only worry about what directly affects ME. Another European invention.

are you native or of native descent? what do you have against europe?

[Juice]

are you native or of native descent? what do you have against europe?

Im not Native, but I have seen what Europe has done. What I have against Europe is that they came over, took their land and slaughtered their people, for no other reason than being bullies.

Europe has been the cause for much good in the world, but I think that what happened to the Native people is an example of the bad that they have caused too. It's sad really, but I guess it was a sign of the times. Ignorance paid off for Europe in those days.

[Loyal Edmonton]

Im not Native, but I have seen what Europe has done. What I have against Europe is that they came over, took their land and slaughtered their people, for no other reason than being bullies.

ahem its over time to move on! if everyone had this attitude we would still be ragging on the united states for trying to invade us!

[Juice]

ahem its over time to move on! if everyone had this attitude we would still be ragging on the united states for trying to invade us!


But you see they tried and failed, the Europeans succeeded in their invasion. Two completely different scenarios.

[Loyal Edmonton]

But you see they tried and failed, the Europeans succeeded in their invasion. Two completely different scenarios.

you need to move on seriously when belgium took control of rwanda and elevated the tutsis to power the hutus took a grudge and when the hutus took power and drove the tutsis out the tutsis took a grudge it all came down again! seriosuly you need to stop the attitude and try and be all peaceful like

[Loyal Edmonton]

, for no other reason than being bullies.

.

Bullies with fur hats and many riches! trust me it wasnt just to bully people it was for econmic gain and imperialism

[Juice]

you need to move on seriously when belgium took control of rwanda and elevated the tutsis to power the hutus took a grudge and when the hutus took power and drove the tutsis out the tutsis took a grudge it all came down again! seriosuly you need to stop the attitude and try and be all peaceful like

I am being peaceful. I'm not going out and starting stuff, I am just showing my disgust at what happened. I dont see how thats a bad attitude. And I certainly dont think I am the only one who feels this way. Just trying to provoke discussion, I think you need to calm down a notch.

[Juice]

Bullies with fur hats and many riches! trust me it wasnt just to bully people it was for econmic gain and imperialism

Yeah, selfish greed. If a few people get killed and they take land away from a people and alienate their culture, whats the harm as long as teh economy benefits right?

[Loyal Edmonton]

I am being peaceful. I'm not going out and starting stuff, I am just showing my disgust at what happened. I dont see how thats a bad attitude. And I certainly dont think I am the only one who feels this way. Just trying to provoke discussion, I think you need to calm down a notch.

i need to calm down because of the injust the natives do to the people here becuase it goes both ways

[Juice]

i need to calm down because of the injust the natives do to the people here becuase it goes both ways

I'm not trying to paint a pretty picture of the Bad Europeans and the Holy Natives here. I'm just trying to get people to recognize that what the Europeans did was wrong, and that just simply paying them off is not enough for alienation and broken treaties.

[Bright Eyes]

Woah ... it's obvious that you didn't grow up near a reservation. :rolleyes:

[Juice]

Woah ... it's obvious that you didn't grow up near a reservation. :rolleyes:

Who, me? Actually I did. I grew up about 10 minutes away from one actually. Ever hear of Walpole Island?

[Insane Power Pilot]

Oh boy, this is already shaping up to be a doozie...

My solution to all the social problems that go on on the reserves is to provide the incentive to go out and be gainfully employed. This would mean taking away the free rides every month. I'm still for giving free land, but it shouldn't have to be on a reserve. And I'm all for the free post-secondary education, after all, how are they supposed to get the jobs? Once the sense of responsibility kicks in, I'm confident that the drug use, alcoholism, and domestic violence will greatly decrease.

And it's not really as though we came in and just bullied them and took away all their stuff...they fought DANG HARD, especially from what I have read in the U.S., like the first settlement there at Jamestown was almost didn't make it because the natives kept raiding the town and burning down buildings and killing people. (Well, that and they didn't find any gold...) In fact, one attack by Opechancanough killed 347 people. Eventually as more people came over, the tide turned in a big way, and that's why it seems like such a one-sided battle.

[Loyal Edmonton]

Woah ... it's obvious that you didn't grow up near a reservation. :rolleyes:

i still am!!

[Juice]

Oh boy, this is already shaping up to be a doozie...

My solution to all the social problems that go on on the reserves is to provide the incentive to go out and be gainfully employed. This would mean taking away the free rides every month. I'm still for giving free land, but it shouldn't have to be on a reserve. And I'm all for the free post-secondary education, after all, how are they supposed to get the jobs? Once the sense of responsibility kicks in, I'm confident that the drug use, alcoholism, and domestic violence will greatly decrease.

And it's not really as though we came in and just bullied them and took away all their stuff...they fought DANG HARD, especially from what I have read in the U.S., like the first settlement there at Jamestown was almost didn't make it because the natives kept raiding the town and burning down buildings and killing people. (Well, that and they didn't find any gold...) In fact, one attack by Opechancanough killed 347 people. Eventually as more people came over, the tide turned in a big way, and that's why it seems like such a one-sided battle.

Thats a good point, but its not like the Natives just attacked them on the beach for no reason, well, maybe some tribes did, but there were a lot of "good relations" and the colonists took advantage of that. Both sides did things wrong, but I think the NAtives were more justified in defending their land. And as well, betrayals like the Indian Removal Act of 1830 was a big problem too. Check it out for yourself.

http://www.synaptic.bc.ca/ejournal/IndianRemovalAct.htm

[Insane Power Pilot]

And as well, betrayals like the Indian Removal Act of 1830 was a big problem too. Check it out for yourself.

Also a good point, but the natives were capable of betrayal as well (albeit it didn't happen as often.) For example, that attack by Opechancanough that I mentioned came about because tribesmen called on the white settlements as if to offer goods for sale, then suddenly attacked.

But all that doesn't really matter...let's focus on the best way to fix the problems facing the natives now.

[Juice]

Also a good point, but the natives were capable of betrayal as well (albeit it didn't happen as often.) For example, that attack by Opechancanough that I mentioned came about because tribesmen called on the white settlements as if to offer goods for sale, then suddenly attacked.

But all that doesn't really matter...let's focus on the best way to fix the problems facing the natives now.

Definitely, thats why I said the Natives had fault too, it just seems like they got the short end of the stick considering they occupied the land first.

[Loyal Edmonton]

Definitely, thats why I said the Natives had fault too, it just seems like they got the short end of the stick considering they occupied the land first.

?what if white people had the land before the natives? think of that?

[Juice]

?what if white people had the land before the natives? think of that?

I dont like to deal with what-if's. At least not in situations like this. What's important is to focus on what actually happened and try to go from there. "Moving on" does not solve the problems.

[Chief03]

Alright, actually time for a native to speak for his people here.

I agree with most of the things you guys are saying, but some of it just dosent comply with me. I myself, my five brothers and father are probably very successful aboriginals. My brother owns his own internet buisness, and works with the native communities in and around Edmonton, Alberta. My other brother is the Manager of the Sales department in an A&B sound, and he's working towards his Masters in child care, and aboriginal studies. My other brothers are doing pretty good for them selves after there year out on their own. Myself, Im a teenager living in a rough town, yet I stay clear of Drugs, Alcohol, and other types of ruthless stuff. Im in cadets, a WO and in the top 5 for top in Northern Alberta.

Now, I don't believe that when people say, "It was the white man who made indians they way they are" because of course like the old saying goes, it takes two to tango. They didn't have to drink alcohol, take drugs, or spend there money on useless stuff. I believe it is mainly my peoples fault. They could have stayed in school, get an education (of course its free if your on the reserve) and get a good paying job. But thats just for the ones on welfare.

So like I said, I agree with what you guys are saying, but of course you have to read up on the facts or do some "on site" research.

[Tomtom]

I have always been a silent firm believer that today's natives shouldn't receive special treatment different any other Canadian citizen.

I grew up in poverty. My total household income per year when I was growing up was approx $12,000.

For a native born in Canada, at the same time as I, how should they deserve any treatment different than me? Is it my fault that ancestors, hundreds of years ago took land that did not belong to them? Should someone who is born today, take advantage of what happened hundreds of years ago when no one currently living in this world is actually responsible?

For example, why should my neighbor who lives in the same Toronto neighborhood, attending the same public high school, attends the same medical clinic for medical care, and uses the same public transportation that I do.... not have to pay taxes on purchases that go to fund those public services?

For example, why should my native co worker, who is in the same job as I, making the same paycheck, works the same hours, and drives the same distance to and from work.... not have to follow the same rules for living as a Canadian citizen as I do?

Native children who are born in Canada or the United States today, come in to this world on the same level playing field as everyone else. There is poverty everywhere. Some families are better off than others. There should be no differences when it comes to a native family. Everyone should be treated equals as citizens, not given preference based on ethnic origin. That is discrimination.

I have worked my way out of poverty. I did it on my own. I now currently make more than both of my parents combined. How did I do it? I made a resume, I got a job, and I worked my way from the bottom to a good career.

I didn't get free school.. heck... I didn't even go to school. I finished high school while serving in the military - only thanks to 5 maturity credits.

Everyone lives in this country... everyone has access to social program such as medical care, public transportation, etc... and everyone should pay for, and be treated equally as citizens of this country.

[Legionnaire]

Personally, I belive it's more the fault of the natives.

I live next to the reserves of Khanawake and Oka, which had that big armed insurection in 1990 and another just last year. they've always been rather hostile so maybe my view IS a little tainted, but i believe from my experiences i have a good grasp of what's going on.

The native people i have dealt with all have the same problem: they think they're owed something. they beleive that just because they're natives and they've had it bad, they can do whatever they want, and just breeze through life. of course, then life takes a leak on them. that's when they do either two things: they either suck it up and do their best, stay in school and all that, or they get angry, play the racism card, and just act like losers for the rest of their lives.

Now, this creates a stereotype, and yes, there are many natives wrongly portrayed by it, but we have a tendancy to see wrongs before we see rights, it's human nature. but the important thing is this idea i mentioned before about them being owed. This point i make now WILL make lots of debate, so please don't bite my head off, but it's my view.

WE DON'T OWE THEM ANYTHING. WE CAME, WE CONQUERED, TOO BAD.

I'm sorry if it's rather blunt, but it's true. now, if it's something like all those problems about abuse in those religious schools, that's different. but i hate when they say that we owe them for takin their land, etc. sure it WAS yours. but we took it, and why not? it's the way of the world. seriously, i'm sorry if you don't like my view, but hold no illusions. that's the way it went down, and you played the losing hand. get over it, and try getting that stereotype booted from human memory, or do something else useful, but stop moping and complaining. the only people it hurts is the natives.

well, i've said my peice, and if anyone has a problem with any of my statements (which i'm sure there are) don't hesitate to start an argument with me.

DD

[Juice]

I believe that something is owed to the Native people, but I think that is has gone out in the wrong way. By giving them all these free benefits and everything like that, nothing is getting solved and the problems dont go away, they seem to get compounded. I think that its a fault on both sides of the line. We get upset with native people because they abuse the benefits that are given to them, and the natives get upset with us over what happened a long time ago, and both claims, at least in my opinion are justified. I think that something needs to change in how this situation is handled. I havent quite figured out what that could be as of yet, but I think we can all agree that he situation as it currently stands is not doing anything to improve Native-White relations.

[Juice]

Personally, I belive it's more the fault of the natives.

I live next to the reserves of Khanawake and Oka, which had that big armed insurection in 1990 and another just last year. they've always been rather hostile so maybe my view IS a little tainted, but i believe from my experiences i have a good grasp of what's going on.

The native people i have dealt with all have the same problem: they think they're owed something. they beleive that just because they're natives and they've had it bad, they can do whatever they want, and just breeze through life. of course, then life takes a leak on them. that's when they do either two things: they either suck it up and do their best, stay in school and all that, or they get angry, play the racism card, and just act like losers for the rest of their lives.

Now, this creates a stereotype, and yes, there are many natives wrongly portrayed by it, but we have a tendancy to see wrongs before we see rights, it's human nature. but the important thing is this idea i mentioned before about them being owed. This point i make now WILL make lots of debate, so please don't bite my head off, but it's my view.

WE DON'T OWE THEM ANYTHING. WE CAME, WE CONQUERED, TOO BAD.

I'm sorry if it's rather blunt, but it's true. now, if it's something like all those problems about abuse in those religious schools, that's different. but i hate when they say that we owe them for takin their land, etc. sure it WAS yours. but we took it, and why not? it's the way of the world. seriously, i'm sorry if you don't like my view, but hold no illusions. that's the way it went down, and you played the losing hand. get over it, and try getting that stereotype booted from human memory, or do something else useful, but stop moping and complaining. the only people it hurts is the natives.

well, i've said my peice, and if anyone has a problem with any of my statements (which i'm sure there are) don't hesitate to start an argument with me.

DD

Just because it was the way of the world didnt make it justifiable or the right thing to do. With that logic, we could justify slavery as being the right thing to do, because "that was just the way of the world" in that time. However, I dont think there are many people that would agree to that.

[Juice]

....Theyre Ancestors...not THEM. BIG Difference. So why do THEY get checks?

Thats why I said that there has to be a different system. Paying them off isnt solving it.

[Chief03]

....Theyre Ancestors...not THEM. BIG Difference. So why do THEY get checks?

WE DON'T OWE THEM ANYTHING. WE CAME, WE CONQUERED, TOO BAD.

How are you part of the "WE" when it was your ancestors, so technically "We" didnt do anything "they" did it.

[Juice]

How are you part of the "WE" when it was your ancestors, so technically "We" didnt do anything "they" did it.

Thats true that "we" didnt do anything, but the people who did arent around to fix the problem, so are we to just ignore it just because we werent the cause of it?

[Shippy]

there is clear lack of education on this subject here...

first off, we arnt "giving" the natives anything here...

(canadian perspective) when the French arrived and started to settle New France, they thought it best to have allies with the native people. these native people had been here for a good 35 000 years. they had developed vast trade networks, advanced social orders, and deep beliefs. where has europeans had the technological edge on then, they were social years ahead of them. they had varying levels of goverment, each responable for different aspects of life. they had religious orders. they a had matrilinearal as well as patrilinenal society. the french (champlain) allied with the huron and soon after enemies with the Iroquios. so history continues. French force upon catholism (only way they let them have guns...). english took over right before the american revolution, and that when things went bad for the natives. the french in comparison gave the natives alot of respect. the british didnt care. they tricked them out of land (y do you think the island of New York was $5...). however the natives say what was happening and started fighting back. the british in an effort to stop this, set up all land west of the Appalatians as "Indian" territory... however the greedy colonialists in the 13 colonies, figured it was theres, revoluted, became a country, and moved on in. the british had also established area in what is now Ontario as Native territory. over the years this land became a "reserve" and later still began to shrink... now within 300 years of first contact, a native population of N. America, went from 15 mill, to around 1 mill. y? because we killed them.

the werent given land... they were force onto it. they dont pay taxes, because they never offical became subjects of the crown. we give them free education, because most could afford it otherwise. they have been discimiate in this country for hundereds of years, even worse then the blacks. these people dont choose to live the way they do. if a native kid wanted to get out of the reserve, what would happen? he would face sterotypes as a "lazy drunk", he wouldnt go too far. hell, even during WW1 and 2 we denied these people the right to fight for thier country and did everything we could to keep them from joining up... take a look at Tommy Prince. he's a true Canadian hero, but will never get the recogntion he deseerves, because of the simple fact he is native.

[piper-from-camp]

I've been to lots of reservations over the years (hmmm...like that one near cornwall). With all the taxbreaks they get, the free...FREE education they have access to, self government (we got us a nation within a nation) and all those nice handouts they get from the government...native reserves are still some of the most crime ridden and poverty striken areas with the highest unemployment and drug/alcohol use rates in the country. They have no incentive to work. We have a perfect example of why foreign (and now domestic) aid does not work. No incentive for improvement...no improvement. So, these people are the desecendants of the 'invaded' native canadians (boo hoo, maybye its not fair that we came over and took the land, but remember, who was the most powerful back then...). And we are the descendants of the people who came and 'invaded'. I didn't do it...and neither did my ancestors (I'm second generation). So again, why should my money go to people in my own country, people who take my hard earned cash and spend it on booze and drugs.

[Shippy]

They have no incentive to work.

that exactly the reason they go no where... attitudes like that can really destroy a person. how would you feel if you grew up and were told you would never go anywere in life? that you had no incentive.?your gonna end up a drunk? and why would you care, you'll just live off the goverment? you can only hear it so many time before it start to become true and you believe it. Native people are some of the proudest people in this country, and the way we degrade them, is a horrible thing.

its rather ironic how your thinking, just perpetutes thier lives. the more you say how much you hate how they "use" the goverment, the more you feed into that destructive sterotype, only causing it to be true for another generation.

[Juice]

I've been to lots of reservations over the years (hmmm...like that one near cornwall). With all the taxbreaks they get, the free...FREE education they have access to, self government (we got us a nation within a nation) and all those nice handouts they get from the government...native reserves are still some of the most crime ridden and poverty striken areas with the highest unemployment and drug/alcohol use rates in the country. They have no incentive to work. We have a perfect example of why foreign (and now domestic) aid does not work. No incentive for improvement...no improvement. So, these people are the desecendants of the 'invaded' native canadians (boo hoo, maybye its not fair that we came over and took the land, but remember, who was the most powerful back then...). And we are the descendants of the people who came and 'invaded'. I didn't do it...and neither did my ancestors (I'm second generation). So again, why should my money go to people in my own country, people who take my hard earned cash and spend it on booze and drugs.

This is precisely why I said that the system of compensation that we have for the Natives isnt right. It isnt solving anything and it gives no incentive. However, I do agree with Stevie Wonder when he said that Natives shouldnt pay taxes because they never rightly came under the Queen's rule. The other things however, I think need to be revised. Dont ask me how, because I dont know, I'm in the process of considering possible solutions (theoretical of course). I do believe that we have to step up and do something to help the Natives though, other than just paying them off each month, because as I mentioned before, that doesnt do anything to normalize or improve relations. If we, in our generation, on both the Natives side and the non-native side, dont do something to fix this problem, I fear it will never get solved and continue on the way it is, and that, at least to me, is a serious cop-out and a failure to recognize the mistakes of the past.

[Loyal Edmonton]

WE DON'T OWE THEM ANYTHING. WE CAME, WE CONQUERED, TOO BAD.



DD

YES!!!!! EXACTLY!!!

[Juice]

Nothing gets solved by that logic.

[Bos'n101]

The invasion is irrelevant. The seizure of land, doesn't really matter. (should we go tell Bush to hand us back the Great Lakes Basin? What did matter was that European culture set out to destroy that of the native popultation.
But here is the thing. I am no less "Native" than they are. I was born, and raised in Timmins, Ontario. The whole concept of a native people is flawed! Their ancestors immigrated to North America from Asia (presumably during the last Ice Age).
I owe nothing to a people to whom I have no wrong. I resent having to pay extra taxes, so that they can receive a life where they don't actually have to do anything! Around here, they complain about how everyone is racist, and how they are descrimanated against! Well, their right! Everyone feels sorry for them, for a situation brought upon by showering them with gifts. The descrimanation is givingthem these things, because it means that as far as the government is concerned, they are different. This breeds the resentment.
I am, and always will be a firm supporter for equal rights, for everyone. I don't know, maybe I'm biased because I'm a White, Middle Class, English Speaking, Male, between 16 and 25. Were I in a cultural niche that received some beneifit from the government for existing I'd feel differently. But I doubt it.
PS-I tend to run at the mouth, and am passionate on human rights issues likethis one. For a logical, well worded summary of my opinion, read TomTom's post, because he said it all!

[Bright Eyes]

Perhaps I would be a little more sympathetic for removing the benefits that natives receive if I didn't know that almost half the houses on Lennox Island (that belong to the band, not individuals) don't have indoor plumbing.

Just because some natives run around gleefully on cheque day doesn't mean that you should paint the whole race with the same brush. I could make the same generalization for people on welfare. Actually, it's worse for them because I know many people that have quit good jobs because they were making too much money to continue collecting the dole. He was white, ergo whitemen are definitely lazy. :rolleyes:

I'd also like to agree with the statement that there isn't any initiative. Free education is definitely the right way to go about bringing a change to this society, but making that education more attractive from Grade 1 is where we need to really be looking. If, by the time they get to high school, they've been caught in the underworld then free education isn't going to do them any good. It is possible to aspire to greatness from the bottom, but it is very difficult.

Hmm ... I wonder where Warren is on this issue. I'm sure he would have some really interesting things to say about it.

[Juice]

You both (Bright Eyes and Bos'n101) essentially are saying what I have been saying. There are problems with the way the Native situation is being dealt with, and there has to be a different route to take. Ignorance on the part of people who are not directly affected by it will not make the situation any better, and I really resent the comment that the Native situation is their problem (well, it is their problem to an extent) and ONLY their problem, and the rest of the country shouldnt worry about it at all. That's just plain ignorance and with that kind of logic, so many other bad things that have happened in the world could be justified with that logic.

[piper-from-camp]

that exactly the reason they go no where... attitudes like that can really destroy a person. how would you feel if you grew up and were told you would never go anywere in life? that you had no incentive.?your gonna end up a drunk? and why would you care, you'll just live off the goverment? you can only hear it so many time before it start to become true and you believe it. Native people are some of the proudest people in this country, and the way we degrade them, is a horrible thing.

its rather ironic how your thinking, just perpetutes thier lives. the more you say how much you hate how they "use" the goverment, the more you feed into that destructive sterotype, only causing it to be true for another generation.

We don't degrade them. I call things like I see them, and this is how I see it. They get free money, I work for mine. They get free education, I pay for mine. I have to follow the rules of our government, I don't whine and complain and get my own little parcel of land to govern as I wish. And yet, I'm not an alcoholic, and I have a job and I'll be off to uni next year. So why can't the native folks, with all these nice benfits, be as successful (or even more so) then I am. They have no incentive to work. So, we cut off their benefits, they have to work. Simple as that. They have pulled this 'I am oppressed and so were my ancestors so yuo have to give me free stuff' way to long, time to end it. And as to self government, the reserve near Cornwall is smuggler's cove itself. I can go there and buy cheaps smokes, drugs, booze, weapons...anything I want. And does the government do anything...no. Because its 'their land' and we can't interfere. Darn it all, they live here and since the government controls the land they pay the government's taxes. Its kind of hard for me to understand why they, with all their benefits, are so 'hard done by' when I get NO free handouts...ever.

[Bos'n101]

You both (Bright Eyes and Bos'n101) essentially are saying what I have been saying. There are problems with the way the Native situation is being dealt with, and there has to be a different route to take. Ignorance on the part of people who are not directly affected by it will not make the situation any better, and I really resent the comment that the Native situation is their problem (well, it is their problem to an extent) and ONLY their problem, and the rest of the country shouldnt worry about it at all. That's just plain ignorance and with that kind of logic, so many other bad things that have happened in the world could be justified with that logic.
In my opinion, if anything should be done at all, which I'm not sure it should, they should be allowed to try to re-establish their cultural way of life on their reserves, so that the outside doesn't interfere. Besides that, cut off all the free grabs! I didn't read anywhere in the history books about it being part of their culture, which the reserves are presumably trying to protect,to receive a stockpile of cash from the government.
They've got their cake, and they're eating it too. Self government, while still receiving the benefits of be Canadian Citizens.
I honestly believe that the time for compensation is over a century gone.

[Juice]

In my opinion, if anything should be done at all, which I'm not sure it should, they should be allowed to try to re-establish their cultural way of life on their reserves, so that the outside doesn't interfere. Besides that, cut off all the free grabs! I didn't read anywhere in the history books about it being part of their culture, which the reserves are presumably trying to protect,to receive a stockpile of cash from the government.
They've got their cake, and they're eating it too. Self government, while still receiving the benefits of be Canadian Citizens.
I honestly believe that the time for compensation is over a century gone.

True enough. I think the government shoud be taking a more active role to help the Native people rebuild their culture. I have been to Pow-wow's and trhing slike that in the past, and I love going to them. It's sad that their culture is slowly disappearing as a result of the free giveaways that are being given out. I think integrating the Native's into Canadian society would be good, but not taking away their culture or their beliefs in the process, like was done in the past, or at least attempted to. I'll give the example of the residential schools. I wont go into detail on them, but if you want more you can PM me and I could find some good sources for you. Instead of giving handouts that reduce the incentive to prosper on their own, I think the government should stop being lazy and passive in all of this and take an active role to try and rebuild the damage that was done, because its obvious how negatively these handouts have affected both sides of the field.

[Tomtom]

Just because some natives run around gleefully on cheque day doesn't mean that you should paint the whole race with the same brush. I could make the same generalization for people on welfare.


All I have been trying to say is...

Treat the native situation like the welfare system for the rest of the population in this country. Individuals that NEED the help, get it. Those who do not... don't.

Isn't that how welfare works? or at least should?

[Juice]

All I have been trying to say is...

Treat the native situation like the welfare system for the rest of the population in this country. Individuals that NEED the help, get it. Those who do not... don't.

Isn't that how welfare works? or at least should?

It's how it SHOULD work, but the welfare system has it's own set of problems that are meant for a different thread ;)

[offguard96]

ahem its over time to move on! if everyone had this attitude we would still be ragging on the united states for trying to invade us!

I'll admit I only read as far as this, because I don't know how much farther I would have gotten without being stirred into an honest-to-God rage.

I agree with the statement and it's implications, though...it's time to move on. If everyone had this attitude, we'd still rag on the Nazis for the holocaust, or Saddam Hussein for his use of chemical weapons...I think it's time to let Stalin rest in peace...I mean, the tens of millions he starved to death died LAST century...the man deserves to be exhonerated!

:rolleyes:

Perhaps what you say is true though. Perhaps many natives go from government paycheque to government paycheque with visions of weed and booze floating around in their heads. But can you say anything different of many "contributing" members of society, who look forward to "the game" after payday to get beered up with friends? Or the thousands of college and university students who look forward to the weekend for the exact same reason? Why do they do it? It's wasting their lives! They're fizzling away God's one-time handout of a life!

How many other high schoolers do you know who work crappy jobs and spend their paycheques on beer, weed, or tobacco? Is there any difference between them and the native teenagers who spend government money on beer, weed, or tobacco? You'll say "yes, the others have to work for it", to which I say that while that is true, the Natives have lost their religion, their language, their history, their land and for many decades their civil rights for the government dole they get now.

They're the heirs of a tragic legacy of conquest, subjugation, persecution, genocide, assimilation, displacement and concentration. We're the descendants of those who did that. They have to deal with the consequences of our ancestor's actions. They have no choice. We can afford to be smug and self-satisfied jerks about it and claim that the sins of the father do not fall to the son, but it doesn't get us anywhere. We're merely committing the latest in a series of criminal acts going back to the first settlers. We're "twisting the blade", if you will, even if it wasn't us who plunged it there, and we shouldn't be surprised to see blood.

Right up until the 1960s and 1970s, our parents' and grandparents' time at the helm of our nation, native children were taken from their homes and put into residential schools. There they were beaten and forced to assimilate, punished for speaking their own language, and told to forget their heritage and culture. Often they were the victims of sexual assault at the hands of those our direct ancestors appointed to be their caretakers.

Now, finally, there are rays of light breaking through and dissipating the dark fog of so many years of brutality and horror. Native groups are finally being given the right to govern themselves. The past 25 years or so is the longest single stretch of time during which they have been free to be, culturally, who they were for thousands of years before "we" arrived.

This freedom is in it's infancy. Of course there will be problems, and they must be addressed, but nothing is as black-and-white as you would paint it to be, and nothing can be gained by ignoring our collective past. They're getting up on their feet again...who cares if we have to buy their shoes, as long as their culture can learn to walk again.

[Shippy]

We don't degrade them. I call things like I see them, and this is how I see it.

your not seeing very clearly then...

lets look at this in a slightly different light. take for example the poor black kid growing up in, lets say, detorit. he grows up, all he sees is his fellow blacks participating in gangs, gang violence, thief, crime, drugs, etc. his out look on life is going to look very bleak, and guess what? he's probaly going to end up joining a gang and continuing the cycle. very few people get out of the "hood". since this is all we see, thats the sterotype we have of poor black kids in poor cities. guess what, a few get out and live "normal" lives.

lets say you grew up on a reserve. you dad was a drunk. your mom struggled to get you by. the little money you got from the goverment (they really dont get a lot of money), could only be spent on food, so you never really had anything "nice". when you went to school, kids make fun of you. when you went to get a job, they said, "sorry no". soicty in general tells you your lazy and unmotivated. well... your probaly going to head back to the reserve and pick up that bottle. thats the life these people live.

people tend to exagerate how much money Natives really get. the band gets a large sum, but guess what? they have to pay for thier own infastructure. the have to higher thier own police. build and maintain thier own roads. run thier own schools (if they have one). and so on and so forth. what left is usually unequal divided among the band members. these people are basicly living off the same amount of money as welfare.

you do degrade them, you sterotype them. you seem to be saying that all natives are like that... there are tons out thier that have made a name for themselves and broken that cycle, but just like the getto, its hard to get out of.

[piper-from-camp]

And who were the ones who whined about self government? Exactly, their problem, not mine (and my tax's) problem.

[Bos'n101]

True enough. I think the government shoud be taking a more active role to help the Native people rebuild their culture. I have been to Pow-wow's and trhing slike that in the past, and I love going to them. It's sad that their culture is slowly disappearing as a result of the free giveaways that are being given out. I think integrating the Native's into Canadian society would be good, but not taking away their culture or their beliefs in the process, like was done in the past, or at least attempted to. I'll give the example of the residential schools. I wont go into detail on them, but if you want more you can PM me and I could find some good sources for you. Instead of giving handouts that reduce the incentive to prosper on their own, I think the government should stop being lazy and passive in all of this and take an active role to try and rebuild the damage that was done, because its obvious how negatively these handouts have affected both sides of the field.
Woah there Juice! The residential schools were nothing more than concetration camps! They were controlled by the churches, and the children were horribly abused, and told that if they followed their traditions, and cultural beliefs, they'd burn for all eternity in Hell! The residential schools were designed to them them into the equivalent of European descendant children.
They were not designed to preserve their culture, they were designed to replace it with ours!
What I was saying was that if they want to be independant, live off the land in the tradtional methods, etc, let them! It will save several unique cultures. Help them get started, otherwise it wouldn't work, then hands off! And outside the reserves, provide equal oppurtunities, not superior, not inferior.

[Shippy]

And who were the ones who whined about self government? Exactly, their problem, not mine (and my tax's) problem.
because they had no goverment representation before... and they didnt whine, unlike other groups (americans) they used the democratic process to get the right of self goverment, not violence. you seem to have a really jaded view of native peoples...

[grass_roots]

I'll admit I only read as far as this, because I don't know how much farther I would have gotten without being stirred into an honest-to-God rage.

I agree with the statement and it's implications, though...it's time to move on. If everyone had this attitude, we'd still rag on the Nazis for the holocaust, or Saddam Hussein for his use of chemical weapons...I think it's time to let Stalin rest in peace...I mean, the tens of millions he starved to death died LAST century...the man deserves to be exhonerated!

:rolleyes:

Perhaps what you say is true though. Perhaps many natives go from government paycheque to government paycheque with visions of weed and booze floating around in their heads. But can you say anything different of many "contributing" members of society, who look forward to "the game" after payday to get beered up with friends? Or the thousands of college and university students who look forward to the weekend for the exact same reason? Why do they do it? It's wasting their lives! They're fizzling away God's one-time handout of a life!

How many other high schoolers do you know who work crappy jobs and spend their paycheques on beer, weed, or tobacco? Is there any difference between them and the native teenagers who spend government money on beer, weed, or tobacco? You'll say "yes, the others have to work for it", to which I say that while that is true, the Natives have lost their religion, their language, their history, their land and for many decades their civil rights for the government dole they get now.

They're the heirs of a tragic legacy of conquest, subjugation, persecution, genocide, assimilation, displacement and concentration. We're the descendants of those who did that. They have to deal with the consequences of our ancestor's actions. They have no choice. We can afford to be smug and self-satisfied jerks about it and claim that the sins of the father do not fall to the son, but it doesn't get us anywhere. We're merely committing the latest in a series of criminal acts going back to the first settlers. We're "twisting the blade", if you will, even if it wasn't us who plunged it there, and we shouldn't be surprised to see blood.

Right up until the 1960s and 1970s, our parents' and grandparents' time at the helm of our nation, native children were taken from their homes and put into residential schools. There they were beaten and forced to assimilate, punished for speaking their own language, and told to forget their heritage and culture. Often they were the victims of sexual assault at the hands of those our direct ancestors appointed to be their caretakers.

Now, finally, there are rays of light breaking through and dissipating the dark fog of so many years of brutality and horror. Native groups are finally being given the right to govern themselves. The past 25 years or so is the longest single stretch of time during which they have been free to be, culturally, who they were for thousands of years before "we" arrived.

This freedom is in it's infancy. Of course there will be problems, and they must be addressed, but nothing is as black-and-white as you would paint it to be, and nothing can be gained by ignoring our collective past. They're getting up on their feet again...who cares if we have to buy their shoes, as long as their culture can learn to walk again.

My sentiments exactly.

With that said another important note which needs to be mentioned:

These government handouts were not the result of "whinning" as so many of you have aptly stated, they are outdated policies based on the old Indian Act which made native peoples wards of the state. I personally view this financial assistance in it's current form of delivery to be more of a hinderance then anything because it undermines the ability of Native bands to properly self govern. Local bands(reseverves) and nations(cree, huron, etc) need the authority to establish thier own social welfare and development programs which adress the needs of individual reserves as most of this funding comes with the stipulation of broad based Government policy.

The issue now is that of self governance and land claims. Essentially the First Nations Assembly wants to completely scrap the horribly outdated patch work of current government policy and begin a new relation with the federal government. This relation would see the Assembly viewed as an equal partner within the constitution and an amendment to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The federal government however is staunchly apposed to this because that would bring far too much clarity for many issues, primarily land claims, and it is believed the Assembly would have little problem pushing through all the back logged claims through the supreme court.

Why do they want land? The vision is Local bands having the acess to enough land to begin sustainable resource related business ventures. This becomes the starting point for healing, self determination and less reliance on government subsidisation.

I think the mistake you are all making here is viewing this issue from the perspective of your life and culture. Indigenous issues are extremely complex and history is inseperable from the whole tangled mess. The standard of life(health, life expectancy, education, rates of substance and sexual abuse, etc, etc) enjoyed by most Natives is comparable with citizens of a third world country, it's a parelel universe and you can't simply say 'suck it up and be like me' because the solution must fit the culture.

On a personal note I would ask everyone to maybe take the time to educate yourself on the issue. Even if you've lived your whole life with natives in plain view you'd be amazed at how tainted your view is without the propper understanding of the historical and cultural background. CBC has an excellent collection of resources in thier Indepth News section on Aboriginal Issues. Aswell if the oportunity ever arises, through school or whatever, to participate in some cultural workshops, talking circles, etc, etc, I recomend you take advantage of it.

[Legionnaire]

How are you part of the "WE" when it was your ancestors, so technically "We" didnt do anything "they" did it.


"We" as in society. Our society has a habit of doing something very peculiar and wrong. if a race/people/whatever has been downtrodden for quite a while, nowadays it's the done thing to do all you can to make them feel all warm and good inside, giving them all sorts of great special treatment. the problem is that it just makes the problem even worse. how are you benifiting by getting special treatment? it just alienates you even more in everyone's eyes, making even more resentfulness. now, i'm not condoning just going and doing whatever you want, and in the aftermath just say, "oh well, too bad for the losers". like Juice061285 said, that causes more problems. but i also don't think that you can just hang onto these ancient wrongs and use them as a shield for anything that ever goes wrong.

example (and this does NOT reflect everybody, just a faction of native peoples): at my school we get all the kids from the reserve next door. they don't try, they think because they are natives they just deserve somehow to pass automatically. when the horrible truth that it's not true dawns on them and they end up in the retard program, they say, "oh, we're here just because we are natives. it's descrimination." well, i'm sorry, but it's YOUR fault. how am I descriminating against them if they think they can just breeze through life and they learn the hard way that that isn't the way the world revolves?

they need to start haulin a** and stop expecting life to open doors for them just because a few hundred years ago they got trodden on by an unfair world. they can't hang onto that forever. not that they should forget, but they should move on.

DD

[piper-from-camp]

because they had no goverment representation before... and they didnt whine, unlike other groups (americans) they used the democratic process to get the right of self goverment, not violence. you seem to have a really jaded view of native peoples...

And look where it got them. Oh, and while the ancestors of today's Native's kept things generally peaceful up here in Canada, their modern history of non-violence is a little tarnished don't you think? Heck, people are afraid to walk the streets at night in Clagary/Edmonton/Winnipeg/Cornwall due to the viscious native gangs that come off the reserves. Thats not racism, thats a fact. I've seen it first hand. Look at what happened at Oka. Many reserves are the epicenter of smuggling and organised crime in Canada, run by heavily armed and well run native gangs, their as good as the Hells Angels when it comes to crime. And then people want to tell me that self-government works? They can't control their own reserves, much less their own people.

[offguard96]

And then people want to tell me that self-government works? They can't control their own reserves, much less their own people.

Hey, you're right! You're also right if you go farther with the argument to say that we don't deserve to govern ourselves, because our society has gangs and criminals, violent crime, counterfeiting, smuggling, drug use, alcoholism, and various degrees of theft. So who governs us, since our self-government in Canada is, by your logic, not working?

Not to mention racist police departments, that might go a good way to explaining why natives form themselves into "gangs" in the cities. For example:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/stonechild/inquiry.html

[Shippy]

And look where it got them. Oh, and while the ancestors of today's Native's kept things generally peaceful up here in Canada, their modern history of non-violence is a little tarnished don't you think? Heck, people are afraid to walk the streets at night in Clagary/Edmonton/Winnipeg/Cornwall due to the viscious native gangs that come off the reserves. Thats not racism, thats a fact. I've seen it first hand. Look at what happened at Oka. Many reserves are the epicenter of smuggling and organised crime in Canada, run by heavily armed and well run native gangs, their as good as the Hells Angels when it comes to crime. And then people want to tell me that self-government works? They can't control their own reserves, much less their own people.

thats what happens when thier "whining", as you put it, goes unheard. you can only live in so many years of rejection and neglect before things reach a boiling point... as the quote says "the pen is mighter then the sword, but when the pen fails you must be ready to take up the sword" i dont agree with the way the native groups conducted themselves at these events like Oka, but you cant deny that it DID bring thier issues to the forfront of Canadian thinking for a time.

[Loyal Edmonton]

you know the germans had to "buy" the shoes of the entante after ww1 and look at the resenment it created!

[Bos'n101]

thats what happens when thier "whining", as you put it, goes unheard. you can only live in so many years of rejection and neglect before things reach a boiling point... as the quote says "the pen is mighter then the sword, but when the pen fails you must be ready to take up the sword" i dont agree with the way the native groups conducted themselves at these events like Oka, but you cant deny that it DID bring thier issues to the forfront of Canadian thinking for a time.
Don't think for a second that these gangs exist for political influence. A young girl I knew refused to stand quietly while a Cree girl insulted her, with things that I will not repeat here. She gave 1 insult, and walked away. Later that day, over 20 large natives chased her through 4 floors of her high school, cornered and beat her. many of them were 18+, she was 14.
Oh, and would you like to know why she'd been harassed in the first place? Because she was black!
These gangs are about power, nothing more!

[offguard96]

you know the germans had to "buy" the shoes of the entante after ww1 and look at the resenment it created!

You must have powerful abs. Your knee-jerk reaction is admirably strong and persistent, though remarkably frustrating.

Take a look at the scale of the reparations. Also, the reparations in the First World War were paid by the vanquished to the victor. In this case, they are not only far from a size that might "bankrupt" our nation (as evidenced by the consistent budget surpluses), but also they are paid by the victor to the vanquished, as part of recognition of the wrong done by our "side" in the past.

Should policies be re-examined? Of course! Should they be re-adjusted and re-evaluated to ensure relevance and impact? Definitely! The problem I have with your "style", if I could use the term so liberally, is that you posess two pots of paint, "black" and "white", and you insist that everything should be one colour or the other. Something you must understand is that if you mix the two (what you could refer to as a "compromise"), you can match any and all shades of gray. You just have to be willing to do some mixing.

[Loyal Edmonton]

You just have to be willing to do some mixing.

and give in and lose? defeats the purpose!

[Juice]

and give in and lose? defeats the purpose!

It's not a matter of giving in, its compromising. If you ever want to make anything work, you gotta do it.

"It's not always rainbows and butterflies it's compromise that moves us along"

While Maroon 5 may not be the greatest band out there, I think they hit it on the nose with that line.

[Shippy]

Don't think for a second that these gangs exist for political influence. A young girl I knew refused to stand quietly while a Cree girl insulted her, with things that I will not repeat here. She gave 1 insult, and walked away. Later that day, over 20 large natives chased her through 4 floors of her high school, cornered and beat her. many of them were 18+, she was 14.
Oh, and would you like to know why she'd been harassed in the first place? Because she was black!
These gangs are about power, nothing more!

i was refering to events such as Oka...

is it any different then gangs in innercity schools? or the gangs in suburbia? no. people of all cultures, backgrounds, race, religion will and have formed gangs. why is native one i big concern? the gangs in toronto shoot and kill each other with Submachine guns...

[J_25]

Their are so much posts filled with ignorance on this thread. Posts saying that natives are just a bunch of scheming drunkards living in luxury dreaming up new ways to cheat the government out of money.
Not true at all.There are poor reserves in Canada they are not all rich like most of you think. A lot of the money going to reserves are spent on improving the reserve and not fueling luxurious easy lives. Most of the people living on reservses can barely make a decent living with a job.
The situation of todays natives is the result of colonization and genocide comitted by the government. In the 19th century alot of natives turned to booze because they'd look around them and see people dying from diseases and their tribe getting killed by white people. There was death everywhere.
I'm a status native so is my family we live in the city, both my parents work and have a good job for a middle class family we get absolutley nothing from the government, we have to file income tax each year, nothing is cheaper, we are equal like the rest of canadians.
If you opened up your eyes and actually learned something not spewed off from your (obviously ignorant) family or stop taking your high school history as fact you'd see the true picture of native people today. Go read April Raintree or Stolen Life which both are about two native woman trying to live with the rest of society.
What Im trying to say is that we don't live easy lives. As natives the playing field was never leveled for us for a long time now it finaly is going to but most of you still have old stereotypes about us, abandon them. Let progress happen.

[Shippy]

[j_25] exactly....

[J_25]

[j_25] exactly....

Thanks Stevie Wonder.

[wb256]

I read the first few pages of this debate, and in all honesty read nothing more than false, misinformation about the benifits of native americans and a lot of other misinformation regarding the evils that they've experienced.

If you guys want to debate about this, try reading up on it. Not the crap they teach you in Canadian history class (which is, for the most part, 100% useless when discussing this topic with any credibility).

The native americans got ROYALLY screwed at the end of the fur trade. Furthermore, the entire idea of reserves isn't being observed properly by the government.

As settlers began ariving at the END of the fur trade (the earlier days of the fur trade, especially when France was still invovled were VERY prosperous for Canada's native american population), native americans began being driven off of their land. At this stage, both sides veiwed them as a SEPERATE nation of people. Initially most of what is the western USA was to be set aside as an "indian country", but all of that changed with independence and manifest destiny. Anyways, when that land was taken by the USA and settlers started moving west negotiations were made on a nation to nation basis (we're talking in Canada here) to move Native Americans onto reserves to free up land for settlers. They were still supposed to be respected as a seperate nation, in control of the reserves and dealing with Canada through the dept of Indian Affairs.

Now, just look at the way this agreement is being made. They're NOT Canadians. The agreements were made to give native americans things FOR ETERNITY in return for removing them from their land (and their economic livlyhood, as they had no control of any of the resources of their lands or any opporunity for economic independence). When viewing this conflict you HAVE too look at it from one nation (Canada) making agreements with other nations (the various and EXTREAMLY different native american peoples).

So, we have an agreement to provide for these people in exchange for taking away all of their land. Also, we agree (at least in the case of the Superior Ojibwa/Anishenabee) to give them the rights to the resources located on their lands so they have SOME change of developing an economy (but, given the quality of most reserve lands, it was a pretty slim chance). Continuing with the example of the Superior area reserves, we later took away their rights to the resources, making them COMPLETELY dependant upon government aid (which, until recently, amounted to very little).

Of coarse, for a while the fur trade continued (although on a very small scale, only in some areas, and becomes hardly profitable for the native americans as the prices were set by the HBC), but that ended a few decades ago due to animal rights protests.

Now, if you look at things this way, you'll understand where native americans points of views come from. There was an agreement between 2 countries, and one country (canada) failed to meet their end of the agreement. This cause the current plight the native americans are currently situated in (economic dependence upon the state). In all honesty, Canada OWES THEM EVERYTHING we have. We built our nation upon their resources...which we forced them to sell to us at a RIDICULOUSLY low price, and then didn't even pay up!

Most of you guys are all looking at this issue from a white, european point of view. To have any hope of comprehending it you have to know a lot about Native American culture...and quite clearly some of you know absolutly nothing.

If you want your opinion in this case to be valid, go take a native studies class.

[wb256]

Oh, I''d just like to talk honestly about all this money that native americans get.

As it stands now, the Canadian Government spends more than twice as much on social services of a non native american person than an native person (taking the overall amount of money spent on each ethnic sector and dividing it by the population). I don't see how we complain that the government is spending an undue amount of money on this ethnic sector if this is the case. If anything, the Indian Affairs dept deserves more $$ (not only does it recieve less, but clearly, due to the masses of poverty, the need is FAR greater). The social servies (school, healthcare, etc) provided on reserves are awful.

And whoever made reserves out to be rich...you've obviously got no clue what you're talking about. Some did luck out in their treaty agreements, but the majority were subjected to a future of poverty. You still see many community leaders with better clothing and vehicles than others, but how is that any different from Canadian society? Our politicians live a far more luxerious life than the average canadian.

[Insane Power Pilot]

If you want your opinion in this case to be valid, go take a native studies class.

We can do without the arrogance. I pay taxes as a citizen of this country, therefore, my opinion is valid. If I were to take specialized classes on every single political issue that comes up, I'd be in university forever. *shudder*.

Having said that, thank you for sharing your knowledge of native studies with us and adding insight to this thread.

[wb256]

I'm sorry, but when people are commenting on the lifestyle currently lead by Native American peoples, an understanding of their history and culture is necessary. Complaining about spending money on it is one thing (which, as I've outlined above, isn't that much money in all reality), but making stabs at their lifestyle and sweeping generalizations about native peoples is just completely ignorant and rude.

I should have made it more clear what that comment was referring to.

[Juice]

I'm sorry, but when people are commenting on the lifestyle currently lead by Native American peoples, an understanding of their history and culture is necessary. Complaining about spending money on it is one thing (which, as I've outlined above, isn't that much money in all reality), but making stabs at their lifestyle and sweeping generalizations about native peoples is just completely ignorant and rude.

I should have made it more clear what that comment was referring to.

It's true, an understanding is necessary, and though I dont have a full understanding of their history (obviously not, who does?), I do hold some knowledge, which has lead me to believe that the Native people in this country have been screwed over time and time again. Just because you see some Natives that go out and buy alcohol and drugs with their money does not mean they all do it. And its not like they are doing it for no reason. You think people who are in poverty want to be there? No, they dont, yet they seem to keep doing the same things that keep them there. It's because of a lack of hope and a lack of understanding from everyone else. Sure, many could go out and get jobs and make something of themselves (and many have, just to be clear on that), but for others, all they get is discrimination and hate when they try to go out into the world. Plus, if you were raised in an environment that is always discriminated against, what hope does that give you to want to go out into that world that seemingly hates you? So people in poverty succumb to alcoholism because they literally ahve no hope of getting out of their situation (they think they have no hope, rather, and its a very sad thing). So before going and saying that all they do is waste the governments money so they can drink and do drugs, think of the possible reasons as to why. Their history isnt very bright, I mean how could it be when people from a land across the ocean came, took your land away and forced you to live in an area they chose, which went against everything the native people believe in; the discrimination they face from other people; etc, etc.
It takes more than just being a tax payer to be able to express a valid argument against the idea that the Natives are in a bad place pilot. You gotta know something about the way things happened too.

[Insane Power Pilot]

Sure, many could go out and get jobs and make something of themselves (and many have, just to be clear on that), but for others, all they get is discrimination and hate when they try to go out into the world. Plus, if you were raised in an environment that is always discriminated against, what hope does that give you to want to go out into that world that seemingly hates you?

Sounds a lot like the emancipation of the slaves in the U.S...look how far they've come.

It takes more than just being a tax payer to be able to express a valid argument against the idea that the Natives are in a bad place pilot. You gotta know something about the way things happened too.

I'm not trying to make that argument though...

[piper-from-camp]

And to those native people who work and pay taxes and whatnot, then congradulations. You live life like the rest of us have to? I don't get to go to university for free (piad for by the gov't), and neither should anyone else. Everyone has a chance to make something of themselves no matter what their situation. Being born poor or into a bad family is no excuse, work harder to achieve your goals. I can't stand it when people think they deserve special treatment for some reason (like Native-Canadians). History is just that and I don't want to have to pay for it. If I work hard (and I do) to earn money, I don't want it just given away to people I don't know. If I like charity, I'll donate. Native people these days are no worse off then anyone else, its in their heads. Yes, there are some racists out there. But, if you are qalified and willing to work hard (like everyone else who wants that job) then you will get it. History and reserve problems and all that are no excuse. Heck, I grew up in a military family, moved around alot and never made any true roots anywhere. I want free education in uni because I went through grade school in a bunch of different systems, and thats not fair. So I should be compensated for it. That sounds fair? If the reserves just foster a bad place to grow up, then move out. YOU are the victim/benefactor of your own decisions, my paycheck shouldn't be.

[grass_roots]

Hell, that's a great mentality. History pffft. While we're at it let's cut all our international aid too, and peace keeping, to hell with that, let the world get it's own peace, look at us, we're just fine, and that whole HIV/AIDS thing? well, it's not my fault they didn't use protection. There's nothing wrong with conservitive views, different strokes for different folk, but heck, at least back it up. But no, you my friend are ignorant, I feel no guilt in saying that because not ONCE have you backed up ANYTHING you have stated in here with anything resembling an educated thaught, just senseless over generalisations and off the cuff remarks which have been nothing but purely offensive and slightly racist in their tone. Your perspective is COMPLETELY biased by nature which is most unfortunate as in this particular instance your personal cultural reality is completely IRRELEVENT.

[piper-from-camp]

AIDS/HIV Aid:
-of the billions of free condoms that are dumped into Africa and India with our aid money, most of those go to fixing cracks in the roads (I'm serious), are used as water carrying devices and or stuck on a stick outside the hut during sex (no one knows how to use them). We spend countless millions on sending out contraceptives to people whos only concern is surviving day to day, not whether or not they die of AIDS 10 years down the road. This = waste of foreign aid.
-spend all that money on finding a cure (ALL of it) not on sending contaceptives overseas to people who haven't the foggiest idea how to use them.

Foreign Aid:
-look at all the money that is sent to Africa (for an example). And yet, look how poor that continent still is. Corruption is rampent, and if we cut off the supply of money, they would have to find a solution to their own problems (eventually corruption would end when there is nothing left to corrupt and they can start anew).
-Zimbabwe, a national policy of driving off or killing all the profitable and prosperous farmers (mostly white) which leads to a national food crisis when people who cannot run a farm take over. Foreign aid get sent to fix a problem that was THEIR OWN FAULT. This happens all over Africa. Instead, when this happens, they cause the problem they fix it themselves.

Native People:
-They get handouts, free education and their own little mini-countryies to run for themselves.
-natives have the highest unemployment rates, highest crime rates on reserves and high levels of alcohol and drug consumption.
-hmmm...free handouts and chances to get better (free university) leads to unemployment and crime, I see now connection.
-why should I support this program when there are no benefits?
-natives are not any more special then the rest of us, go out and make something of yourself on your own like the rest of us do.
-christopher columbus is long dead and so are the native ancestors who lost their land, lets let history be just that.
-Yes, some native people do succeed, congradulations, thats what the rest of us have to do.

Welfare
-white, black, native, pink or purple, if you are on welfare you better be working your darndest to get off it.
-I (and the rest of hard working society) have to work because thousands depend on my taxes for their welfare check.
-I despise welfare as a long term thing, short term is ok to help people get back on their feet, but thats it.

In General
-we have enough problems here, lets solve them before I spend my taxes on non-canadians.
-I'd rather see my taxes go to helping Canadians and fixing Canadian problems before we go off giving it to others.
-peacekeeping and giving free money to nations to run up huge debts that will never be paid back are two different things.

Oh, and its not my fault they didn't use protection (those with AIDS in this country who got it from consensual unprotected sex). If you are dumb enough to not use a condom when you get freaky with someone who MIGHT have AIDS, then its your own darn fault.

Now back up, to me, why we SHOULD keep spending money on free condoms, foreign aid, native handouts and an easily abused welfare system. You get out of life what YOU put into it.

[Juice]

Hold on, let me get this straight. The problems in Africa are their own fault?? I dont think so my friend. Take a look at the history. Before Europe went into Africa, everything was spread out, sparsely populated and all that...sure the conditions werent the greatest, but they were survivng a lot better than they are now. When Europe came, they put everyone together in small, concentrated areas (not concentration camps, in case anyone gets confused by what I am writing), but they were all put together, and forced to live that way, and as a result, the population exploded, and now places like Africa are overpopulated. You cannot tell me that the situation in Africa is entirely their fault. If Europe hadnt gone in and used the land and people the way they did, then their situation would be a lot better today than it is.

[Juice]

AIDS/HIV Aid:
-of the billions of free condoms that are dumped into Africa and India with our aid money, most of those go to fixing cracks in the roads (I'm serious), are used as water carrying devices and or stuck on a stick outside the hut during sex (no one knows how to use them). We spend countless millions on sending out contraceptives to people whos only concern is surviving day to day, not whether or not they die of AIDS 10 years down the road. This = waste of foreign aid.
-spend all that money on finding a cure (ALL of it) not on sending contaceptives overseas to people who haven't the foggiest idea how to use them.

Oh, and its not my fault they didn't use protection (those with AIDS in this country who got it from consensual unprotected sex). If you are dumb enough to not use a condom when you get freaky with someone who MIGHT have AIDS, then its your own darn fault.

Now back up, to me, why we SHOULD keep spending money on free condoms, foreign aid, native handouts and an easily abused welfare system. You get out of life what YOU put into it.

I think instead of just sending over condoms to other countrie, we should be trying to educate the people on how to use them properly. Thats where we go wrong. We send the things, and then get mad because they arent using them and blame their condition entirely on them. But the problem is, so many people think they choose not use them, and there is more blame now because they arent using them,but lets face it, how are they gonna know how to use them? There needs to be education in that in orderfor us to expect them to use the condoms. It's not their fault they dont know how, so we have no right to get mad at them for not using them when we send them over. We need to educate, people, educate.

[wb256]

Alright, until you ALL start viewing this as an issue between 2 countries, not an issue between canadian citizens you have absolutly NO HOPE of understanding it.

They get free schooling because it's part of a contract between 2 countries. We get the priviledge of living on their land and they get a VERY small amount of money in return (like I said, YOU get more money from the gov't than a native person does). If you want to complain about economic dependence upon the state, it's EXACTLY what the government wanted (if native Americans became economically independant, not only would they use up resources available to canadians but they'd also be more difficult to keep under control).

I can't believe the compltete ignorance present in this thread...FROM BOTH SIDES. Juice, if you want to comment on the origins of subustance abuse within native american society, you might want to learn something about native american society.

Also, if you want to comment on the lack of them "making something of themselves", you might want to look into their culture.

Their situatio is ENTIRELY different than slaves. You can't even make a comparison here. We (the citizens of Canada) are in a contract with Native American peoples...and we got the EXTREAMLY good end of the deal. Now, after we tricked/forced them into signing ridiculous treaties we want to take that away as well?

If we do that then we WILL be stealing their land. The Canadian government and Biritish crown may have given them a bad deal, but we still made an exchange for those lands rather than stealing them. I think that's an extreamly good thing on our part, and I'd like to keep it that way.

Once again, everything that's being posted in here is a bunch of generalizations and at times outright lies. None of you have any idea what you're talking about.

[Insane Power Pilot]

-spend all that money on finding a cure (ALL of it) not on sending contaceptives overseas to people who haven't the foggiest idea how to use them.

A cure will never happen, at least not for a very long time. It's impossible to cure a viral disease, let alone a retrovirus, let alone an autoimmune retrovirus! And it also mutates after every replication, which means it develops drug resistance. The best chance is education about it, or a vaccine (but like I said, it evolves so rapidly that it this would be pretty challenging). Of course not even condoms will completely eliminate the risk. I'm not saying we should give up on a cure, but we should be much more focused on slowing the spread of it.

I know just how off-topic this is, but I'm afraid of being on-topic lest WarrenBernauer come down and smite me. ;)

[grass_roots]

...If you want to complain about economic dependence upon the state, it's EXACTLY what the government wanted (if native Americans became economically independant, not only would they use up resources available to canadians but they'd also be more difficult to keep under control)....

...None of you have any idea what you're talking about.

Oh, and he nails it!!! 3 points

...pssst, I thaught I knew what I was talking about :rolleyes:

[piper-from-camp]

Alright, until you ALL start viewing this as an issue between 2 countries, not an issue between canadian citizens you have absolutly NO HOPE of understanding it.

They get free schooling because it's part of a contract between 2 countries. We get the priviledge of living on their land and they get a VERY small amount of money in return (like I said, YOU get more money from the gov't than a native person does). If you want to complain about economic dependence upon the state, it's EXACTLY what the government wanted (if native Americans became economically independant, not only would they use up resources available to canadians but they'd also be more difficult to keep under control).

I can't believe the compltete ignorance present in this thread...FROM BOTH SIDES. Juice, if you want to comment on the origins of subustance abuse within native american society, you might want to learn something about native american society.

Also, if you want to comment on the lack of them "making something of themselves", you might want to look into their culture.

Their situatio is ENTIRELY different than slaves. You can't even make a comparison here. We (the citizens of Canada) are in a contract with Native American peoples...and we got the EXTREAMLY good end of the deal. Now, after we tricked/forced them into signing ridiculous treaties we want to take that away as well?

If we do that then we WILL be stealing their land. The Canadian government and Biritish crown may have given them a bad deal, but we still made an exchange for those lands rather than stealing them. I think that's an extreamly good thing on our part, and I'd like to keep it that way.

Once again, everything that's being posted in here is a bunch of generalizations and at times outright lies. None of you have any idea what you're talking about.

Incorrect. Natives are not, never were and never will be a country. They are a nation. Canada is a soverign country. Basically, we made a deal for the land yes. But we could have also just taken it. If you cannot defend yourself, well, sometimes someone is going to come along and take it from you. But thats beside the point. I still have not got a good reason as to why my taxes should pay for other people's free educations as I look forward to paying rising tuition costs and having to work for my money. Maybye its time to re write the treaties. I propose a simple one...'we now control the land, and the past is in the past, so now native people, being citizens of this country, can pay taxes and live like everyone else has to'. No handouts, not free education, no mini-countries (reservations) and no special treatment. I think its unfair and the time for a change is way overdue.

[piper-from-camp]

Oh, and we are not living on their land. They did not have territorial control over the whole landmass of North America. We are living on our land that we took over.

[grass_roots]

AIDS/HIV Aid:
-of the billions of free condoms that are dumped into Africa and India with our aid money, most of those go to fixing cracks in the roads (I'm serious), are used as water carrying devices and or stuck on a stick outside the hut during sex (no one knows how to use them). We spend countless millions on sending out contraceptives to people whos only concern is surviving day to day, not whether or not they die of AIDS 10 years down the road. This = waste of foreign aid.
-spend all that money on finding a cure (ALL of it) not on sending contaceptives overseas to people who haven't the foggiest idea how to use them.

Foreign Aid:
-look at all the money that is sent to Africa (for an example). And yet, look how poor that continent still is. Corruption is rampent, and if we cut off the supply of money, they would have to find a solution to their own problems (eventually corruption would end when there is nothing left to corrupt and they can start anew).
-Zimbabwe, a national policy of driving off or killing all the profitable and prosperous farmers (mostly white) which leads to a national food crisis when people who cannot run a farm take over. Foreign aid get sent to fix a problem that was THEIR OWN FAULT. This happens all over Africa. Instead, when this happens, they cause the problem they fix it themselves.


Your reference to condoms is rediculous, that's outdated urban myth from the early 90s. I LIVED in west Africa for 4 months, home of the highest AIDS infection rate in the world. Awareness is steadily on the rise as a result of extensive Inter-Governmental co-operation and condoms are readily available for purchase(a 4 pack costs the equivelent of about 4 cents) and often for free. The use of condoms, while still low is also, as of the past 4 years, increasing by a pretty astounding rate. Infact while I was living there the national TV network was playing a 3 month mini-series which was created in Brazzavile, Congo, called Sex In The City (not the one we all know and love, haha). It was all about HIV/AIDS in peoples life in the city, and hows it's spreading and everything. People would actually gather round in the streetside cafes to watch it like they did with soccer(ya, remember, these are living, breathing people we are talking about here, who do things like play soccer because, like us, they love life and do everything they can to live it to thier fullest). These efforts, for reasons of infastructure, are often not capable of reaching the more rural areas.

Your second comment regarding thier lack of concern over the matter is COMPLETELY false, everyone I talked to over there about the issue was deeply concerned because EVERYONE kows someone who is dying or has already passed away as a result. My host mother, who was a midwife and really involved in the local medical comunity, said many are concerned because the endemic is putting a lot of wieght on an already fragile medical infastructure.

Finding a cure is a rather useless effort if there is no one left behind to administer it to! AIDS has now killed more people then all of the wars and genocides of the 20th centure COMBINED. It has a strong foot hold and infection rate in Africa and now south east Asia, Oceanasia, eastern Europe and Central/South America are becoming engulfed aswell. The focus MUST be on reducing the spread of the virus and making cost effecient perscription drugs readily available to those infacted as to aleviate the crippling stress placed upon the frigile infastructures of these often unstable nation states. AIDS is by far the most pressing concern of the 21st century, even more so then the imending petrolium crisis, climate change or Terrorism.

Cutting off forign aid to Africa is NOT going to end curruption. Cutting off foriegn aid to Africa is going to ensure we have enough disease to wipe humanity off the face of the earth, it truely is THAT dire. At the least it would likely result in war within the continent on a scale not ever before known by history. Zimbabwe is HARDLY an ideal example of political ethics and stability in Africa, it is one of handful of fanatical dictatorships. It is of interest to note that there are also war torn nations such as the Ivory Coast which are home to moderately stable democratic governments. Curruption is however wide spread, even in the best of spots, this I will not deny, but it's rather petty and VERY rarely tied to funds from NGOs or Inter-governmental aid. The only current concern amongst the international community is that current USAID funds, targetted for the reduction of terrorism, are simply being used by rigid dictator ships to drive oposition parties and political disenters into the ground and to build up invasion strenght military force.

[wb256]

Oh, and we are not living on their land. They did not have territorial control over the whole landmass of North America. We are living on our land that we took over.


Once again, YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT YOU'RRE TALKING ABOUT!

Do you even understand the process by which the crown aquired land from Native Americans? We didn't take it over, we were given the right to use native american land by the natives (they thought we were sharing, we thought we were buying). Later, treaties were made to negotiate native americans giving us their land.

Look, if you want to discuss this any further with any crdibility there's a few documents you have to read. First, the report of the royal comission on native peoples. Nxet, the indian affairs act. While you're at it, the royal proclamation of 1763 will shed some light into how interactions between the 2 nations existed.

Natives went into these agreements thinking that they had soverign control over reserve lands. They view themselves as seperate nations of people with claim to their own land (a country, even if it's not recognized by the UN).

However, I made a HUGE error in my earlier posts. In the heat of the moment I forgot to include that we have a homogenous view of native society. The differing nations are so diverse in culture, etc...that viewing them like this just furhter impedes understanding of the issue.


And dave, clearly you know what you're talking about. Once again, heta of the monent, sorry. (I take some of this stuff rather personally).

[Loyal Edmonton]

AHAHAHAHAHA its funny how warren goes on and on about how we dont know anything! Are we supposed to believe you have all the answers? NO! you have your opinion! and you are using that to say that anyone who does not have your opinion is wrong! HAH!

[grass_roots]

AHAHAHAHAHA its funny how warren goes on and on about how we dont know anything! Are we supposed to believe you have all the answers? NO! you have your opinion! and you are using that to say that anyone who does not have your opinion is wrong! HAH!

I believe Warren is currently working twords his Bac in Social Geography, right Warren? 2nd or 3rd year? So yes I would hazard to guess his opinion is of a much more educated and culturally open perspective than yours, or others who have made bold and ignorant statements.

[Juice]

Yep, my ignorance on the subject is clear. I am sorry to those for wrong info, or spreading my opinion on this. I do think that I ahve some knowledge of what is going on, but as Warren pointed out, I should do more research on the matter.

Warren raises very good points, and I agree with him. It may be opinion Triservice, but it is opinion that has been backed up by fact, and that is what makes it more credible than most of the things that have been said so far in this thread, including many of my posts, just to show you guys that I am not high on myself.

I apologize Warren if I have offended you in any way, or anyone else for that matter. At least some light has been shed on the situation that the Native people have gone through, which was my intention for starting this thread.

[grass_roots]

(I take some of this stuff rather personally).

ya man, I hear ya, my internship while I was in Quebec was at a native friendship centre, I was a youth councellor, my personal spirituality is also heavily influenced by native beliefs, healing and wellness

And my concern for Africa, well, obvious :rolleyes:

[Shippy]

Incorrect. Natives are not, never were and never will be a country. They are a nation. Canada is a soverign country. Basically, we made a deal for the land yes. But we could have also just taken it.

wow... your really off thier... we gave the natives land because we were afraid of them. lets see about a million natives in early north america, verses about a million colonialists. well the colonialists have guns... but the natives know the land, can track for miles, are excellent a gurella warfare, and oh yes, are rather angry at us for taking thier land and tricking them. reservers were like throwing them a bone. the land thier were given was thiers to begin with, but it was land that was "not" to settled by settlers... however this land was bought and traded from them, and thier reserves got smaller and smaller.

as for all your comments about we conqured them. that is completely incorrect. unlike most people now adays, the natives had a vast respect for each other, and didnt have the same concept of ownership we have. natives groups would often open thier doors to any stranger or wanderer that came by and facilitated them for however long they stayed (even years). when the early explores came, they just thought of them as funny looking strangers and tolerated them. if they really wanted they could have destroyed them, but they were friendly and unfortunatly for them, let the explorers get a foot hold.

[Loyal Edmonton]

I believe Warren is currently working twords his Bac in Social Geography, right Warren? 2nd or 3rd year? So yes I would hazard to guess his opinion is of a much more educated and culturally open perspective than yours, or others who have made bold and ignorant statements.


oh because he has or is taking his bac in social geography means he is a better person to judge this and his OPINION is better than mine or someone elses... hmm lets see warren why dont you come to beaverlodge live next to the horse lake reserve and interact with them everyday.. then we will see how valid your "educated" opinion is!

[Chief Hoult]

Back up....there are a few issues with that.

First of all, he is correct. Backing up an opinion with facts makes his opinion a little more educated. It is a fact that essentially, the current arrangement is one between two 'nations'. You can differ in opinion all you want -- it isn't going to change the facts of that matter.

Yes, there is also first hand experience. It's what you bring to this, and likewise, what Dave brings to this. Each of you have different experiences, but I would be more inclined to say that I'd pay attention to Dave's more than yours. Not saying that yours isn't valid, however Dave worked in a youth centre, and worked witht native youths....where as your opinions seemed to be based on observations, etc, as opposed to truly interacting with the population there (I may be entirely incorrect, and I apolagize if I am).

Now, his 'educated' opinion is quite valuable in this matter, as evidently, many people in here are expressing an opinion based on falicies and without actual fact. You have the right to your opinion, but by all means, back it up with research, and it probably will hold more weight. I'm impressed with Warrens composure throughout this entire thread, and many tohers tolerance.

Anywho, that's just where I see the whole 'opinion' issue....

CH

[Ching]

Incorrect. Natives are not, never were and never will be a country. They are a nation. Canada is a soverign country.
Umm... dude... I think Warren, being the intelligent person that he is, was NOT saying that they have their own country. He was saying that we should *think* of this as an international relations situation... as in, *think* of the aboriginal people as being their own nation. He's not so dumb as to suggest that it actually is a separate country within this one. :rolleyes:

[piper-from-camp]

oh because he has or is taking his bac in social geography means he is a better person to judge this and his OPINION is better than mine or someone elses... hmm lets see warren why dont you come to beaverlodge live next to the horse lake reserve and interact with them everyday.. then we will see how valid your "educated" opinion is!

Opinion or fact, unlike yourself Mr. Warren has actually contributed to this discussion/argument/whateverby discussing the issue at hand. Instead of barging in and trying to...I don't know what you tried to do there. How about you add something useful to this discussion or just bugger off.

Oh, and another thing. Don't overrate that university degree thing. Having one or working towards one does not automatically make you more informed or what have you.

I stick to my guns on this issue. We should re-write this whole native treaty thing. We are beyond the idea that we are 'borrowing' their land. They should now be at the same level as everyone else as citizens of this 'country'...not as inhabitants of this 'land'. On one hand people don't want to be seen as ative/black/chinese/gay etc and want to be treated the same as everyone else, but on the other hand they want all kinds of nice benfits for being 'different'. Native people should be considered full citizens of Canada in all respects (i.e. taxation) and should have their handouts and little mini-countries removed permanently.

[piper-from-camp]

Umm... dude... I think Warren, being the intelligent person that he is, was NOT saying that they have their own country. He was saying that we should *think* of this as an international relations situation... as in, *think* of the aboriginal people as being their own nation. He's not so dumb as to suggest that it actually is a separate country within this one. :rolleyes:

So we should treat relations between Canada and Quebec as a dispute between two countries? That would set a bad precedent. There is one country here, Canada and thats it. They should not be treated as a seperate country, or even though of as such. Because they are not. And if you want Canada to stay together, won't ever be either.

[Chief Hoult]

No, we shouldn't, because we don't have an agreement with Quebec like we do with Natives. Quebec is part of Canada, even if they do have a bit of a different culture. Not quite the same with the Natives.

CH

[wb256]

You want to talk first hand experience? I'm from red lake ontario, where a good portion of my friends were native americans. I'm from WAY up in north western ontario.

Also, I didn't say anything about anyone's opinions. The facts that you're all using to back them up are completely false.

My knowledge comes from a combination of my cultural/social geography, growing up where I did, talking to a lot of people who have lived on reserves and in the arctic and reading a LOT of material on this subject.

And in all honesty, you can live in a town surounded by native americans, and not understand a thing about their culture or way of life.

Honestly, how many of you have even read the indian affairs act? This is the document that you all complain about so much, but how can you even hope to understand it's goals or what it is without reading it? Also, understanding society at the time period of it's writing (and the different cultural understandings of these agreements) would be a huge help.

I'm not trying to sound arrogant here, but it's very difficult to listen to people shout out misinformation to back up their statements (especially when it's an issue that's effected so many people that I've known).

I don't care what your opinions are, but the majority of everyone who'se posted in here has done nothing but repeat rumours and misinformation. If you disgaree with treaty status after understanding their culture and the reasons for the treaties, that's your own buisness.

Now, before this debate goes any further I'd like everyone to do me a HUGE favour (and, in the end, yourselves). You all seem to be looking at this issue from a white protestant philosophical perspective (classical liberalism sort of deal). This issue is between canadian society and numerous other diverse societies. To have any hope of understanding this issue, you need to have some sort of understanding of the different perspectives of the different societies involved.

I respect everyone's opinions, but I really beg of you to make an effort to understand this issue on a deeper level. Please read some of the documents that I've suggested. I can understand if you disagree with the treaty status, but I'd take an opinion like that a lot more seriously if you actually understood what you disagreed with.

[wb256]

So we should treat relations between Canada and Quebec as a dispute between two countries? That would set a bad precedent. There is one country here, Canada and thats it. They should not be treated as a seperate country, or even though of as such. Because they are not. And if you want Canada to stay together, won't ever be either.

You're missing the point, the precedent has been set. From the get go this is how the government has dealt with the "indian problem" (that was a historical reference, not a racial slur). In the latter half of the 20th century attempts at assimilation were made, but (as we can all see from the way our 2 socieities are so seperated) they largely failed.

The precedent has been set, the agreements between 2 nations have been signed...and I see no reason to change the way things work (clearly things need to be done to allieviate poverty, but the dealings between 2 soverign nations should definatly remain, as should our part of the deal for taking the land).

Anyways, like I said before...READ the documents that I mentioned above before commenting on the historical processes or the current treatment of native american peoples. Not all reserves are the same, and to assume so is absolutly ridiculous. It's like assuming things will work the same in France as they do in Yugoslavia (they're both white and in Europe, right?). These people speak different langauges, have different religions and customs and have their own soverign governments.

Before you guys can grasp why things work the way they are and what a good, fair and plausable solution to this issue would be, please read what I outlined. Like I said, it's misinformation, not opinions, that bother me.

[Shippy]

Before you guys can grasp why things work the way they are and what a good, fair and plausable solution to this issue would be, please read what I outlined. Like I said, it's misinformation, not opinions, that bother me.

could you please be a bit more specific here? if you are informed, can you please correct the incorrect information that you are bothered with... meaning no offence her, but when you talk about misinformation, and then dont actual tell us what information is wrong... it sorta throughs all of us through a bit of a loop. i have tried to keep my infomation acurate, from my personal knowledge, and what i have come accross in my browsing of the net. this is an issue that has and always will interest me, so i do have a bit of background info on it.

on a slightly different note... my dad has many friends who are both non-status and status natives, and none of them appear to be the drunks that some people have sterotyping them as... please dont insult them. i dont go around calling black people "a bunch of gun toting drugdealing lowlife thiefs," now do i? please dont do the same.

[Loyal Edmonton]

and none of them appear to be the drunks that some people have sterotyping them as... please dont insult them. i dont go around calling black people "a bunch of gun toting drugdealing lowlife thiefs," now do i? please dont do the same.

live life in beaverlodge then dont stereotype! :D

[Juice]

live life in beaverlodge then dont stereotype! :D

Ahhh, one place, one example. Hardly enough to constitute a justifiable stereotype.

[wb256]

live life in beaverlodge then dont stereotype! :D


I've lived life in an area that I'm quite sure isn't much better in terms of those types of social problems. I don't stereotype.

[wb256]

could you please be a bit more specific here? if you are informed, can you please correct the incorrect information that you are bothered with... meaning no offence her, but when you talk about misinformation, and then dont actual tell us what information is wrong... it sorta throughs all of us through a bit of a loop. i have tried to keep my infomation acurate, from my personal knowledge, and what i have come accross in my browsing of the net. this is an issue that has and always will interest me, so i do have a bit of background info on it.

on a slightly different note... my dad has many friends who are both non-status and status natives, and none of them appear to be the drunks that some people have sterotyping them as... please dont insult them. i dont go around calling black people "a bunch of gun toting drugdealing lowlife thiefs," now do i? please dont do the same.


I've done my best to outline some of the major sources of misinformation. Others, I'll try to do tomorrow (I'm in the middle of a huge essay and don't have time to review this whole thread).

A big part is the over simplification of the process by which we aquired native american's land. So many generalizations have been made in this thread that just arn't historically accurate and are really misleading when trying to come up with an informed opinion to this.

Another is the way in which we group all native americans together. They had different cultures pre-contact, and they maintain them today (and developed relationships with the crown differently). To understand the issues that particular tribes are raising you have to understand their individual histories.

However, there are two MAJOR errors most people are making. First, people arn't viewing this as an international issue, but rather as a domestic one...which would be incorrect. To have a good understanding of the native american perspective I think that viewing these issues (land claims, treaty money, etc) as an agreement between 2 nations is the easiest way.

Secondly is the fact that everyone here seems to be working from a white european perspective. It's really quite difficult to shed our cultural values when looking at an issue, but it's pretty much vital in this case. I can't really explain how to do this, but not judging native americans for not striving to have high paying respectable jobs would be the first step.

I'm not claiming that I'm an expert on native american history or culture. All I'm saying is that the majority of things being posted here are being done so without any knowledge of the actual issue at hand from the native american perspective. None of you have really seemed to make THAT huge of an attempt to understand the issue (even those who sympathize with them). I'm not trying to act arrogant, I'm just trying to stop a lot of misinformation (something which is causing huge problems with this group of people).

[Tomtom]

I'm not claiming that I'm an expert on native american history or culture. All I'm saying is that the majority of things being posted here are being done so without any knowledge of the actual issue at hand from the native american perspective.


My eyes have been opened since the start of this thread. I really don't understand the majority of what is going on, and yes, I've had and expressed my opinion, based on my understanding.

I'm happy that Warren has taken the time to explain things a bit better, and perhaps help me realize the realities of the topic.

Thanks Warren, I'd love to hear what you have to say when you have time.

[Juice]

My eyes have been opened since the start of this thread. I really don't understand the majority of what is going on, and yes, I've had and expressed my opinion, based on my understanding.

I'm happy that Warren has taken the time to explain things a bit better, and perhaps help me realize the realities of the topic.

Thanks Warren, I'd love to hear what you have to say when you have time.

Ditto. Just seeing what Warren has had to say has really shown me how limited my knowledge is of this matter. Thanks again Warren for sharing your knowledge on thsi matter.

[Loyal Edmonton]

this is not between two nations this is in canada

[Juice]

this is not between two nations this is in canada

Oh man, I thought this was settled already. The treaties were signed between two different nations. It doesnt mean two different countries. Those are two entirely different definitions. Thats a FACT. You can dispute that all you want, but its the truth. Just drop that idea, cause it was settled a long time ago.

[Shippy]

this is not between two nations this is in canada

you have to realise that before North America was Canada, the US, and Mexico... it was over a hundred different cultures, with about 51 completely different languages. to stop at our boarder when looking at the problem isnt really fair. in some cases, the native group orginated in what is now the US, but fleed Canada way for fear of the US expansion, and the general distain for the Aboriginal peoples the Americans held. looking at canada in this case might be valid, but you have to realise there are other international factors at play as well.

[wb256]

this is not between two nations this is in canada

No, this is between 2 nations of people. A nation is a group of people with a distinct culture and claims to land.

The government (before and at the time of confederation) treated native americans as a seperate nation of people. The best way to understand this issue is one between two seperate countries.

Seriously, it's quite obvious that you've done little research on this topic and are forming opinions from cultural biases and rumours that you've heard.

[wb256]

My eyes have been opened since the start of this thread. I really don't understand the majority of what is going on, and yes, I've had and expressed my opinion, based on my understanding.

I'm happy that Warren has taken the time to explain things a bit better, and perhaps help me realize the realities of the topic.

Thanks Warren, I'd love to hear what you have to say when you have time.


Thanks Tom. I'm pretty swamped with school right now, and to give a breakdown of the situation could literally take pages upon pages of typing. Perhaps in december once exams are done I'll write a piece on the subject for the cw-zine or something.

[Dick]

this is not between two nations this is in canadaThank you for showing me of the egg-town ways. I have been shunned.

Perhaps in december once exams are done I'll write a piece on the subject for the cw-zine or something.
Yeah man, that would be a wicked read. I'm looking forward to it :D

[wb256]

I don't know how wicked it would be...I'm far from an expert on the subject, but I have read a fair bit. I definatly don't have "all the right answers" to these problems, but after extensive study I'm quite sure that the issue is far more complex than most people make it out to be :)

[piper-from-camp]

this is not between two nations this is in canada

Been said, been argued against. Look up the definition of nation and then the definition of country. Please, you are not contributing to this debate in a useful way, so go away or contribute. One of the two. Because your editorial comments are actually rather useless and not funny. Now, I still stick to what I believe in on this issue, but I will admit that even though I totally disagree with Warren's view on this, he has pulled up some useful info that I was too lazy to get to put in my posts. So for that, good job. This has been a most interesting debate. I may have actually even learned a thing or two, go figure.

[Loyal Edmonton]

Been said, been argued against. Look up the definition of nation and then the definition of country. Please, you are not contributing to this debate in a useful way, so go away or contribute. One of the two. Because your editorial comments are actually rather useless and not funny. Now, I still stick to what I believe in on this issue, but I will admit that even though I totally disagree with Warren's view on this, he has pulled up some useful info that I was too lazy to get to put in my posts. So for that, good job. This has been a most interesting debate. I may have actually even learned a thing or two, go figure.

you know what you are making me pretty riled up and trust me last time i got riled up it dint work out here.. so lets attack the points not the person

[grass_roots]

you know what you are making me pretty riled up and trust me last time i got riled up it dint work out here.. so lets attack the points not the person

dude, grow up, this is CW not Springer

[Bright Eyes]

*picks up a chair and gets ready to throw it*

dude, grow up, this is CW not Springer

:( Awwww ....

[wb256]

you know what you are making me pretty riled up and trust me last time i got riled up it dint work out here.. so lets attack the points not the person


Is that a threat? What are you going to do, send him an emoticon of you punching him?

[Insane Power Pilot]

Is that a threat? What are you going to do, send him an emoticon of you punching him?

http://mosfet.ath.cx/images/smiley/slap.gif

[Juice]

http://mosfet.ath.cx/images/smiley/slap.gif

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Thats jokes! I never actually thought I would see one, lol ;)

[Shippy]

http://mosfet.ath.cx/images/smiley/slap.gif

THAT IS THE GREATEST POST EVER!!!!

[piper-from-camp]

you know what you are making me pretty riled up and trust me last time i got riled up it dint work out here.. so lets attack the points not the person

But your not making any points for me to attack...I can hear it now "Jerry, Jerry, Jerry".

[Loyal Edmonton]

But your not making any points for me to attack...I can hear it now "Jerry, Jerry, Jerry".

fine i am leaving this thread because i dont want to be gang beaten :mad:

[piper-from-camp]

fine i am leaving this thread because i dont want to be gang beaten :mad:

Thank you. Now, just a thought. Quebec has made calls for independance and come darn close to seperating. What might happen if the native bands all joined together and collectively decided to take their lands and seperate from Canada too? Its a bit of an extreme thought, but then again Quebec seperation was seen as an extreme idea not to long ago. Or we had another Oka, but on a larger scale and more widespread. We actually have heavily armed native bands 'taking back their land' by force. Just some ficticious scenarios to contemplate.

[wb256]

In all honesty, they should be allowed to do whatever they want with their lands. After studying the process by which the crown aquired land from native americans (we didn't just steal it and force them off of it, we cou;ldn't afford an "indian war" the like USA led), it seems to me that (at least on the aboriginal side) it was understood that Native American lands are a sort of "nation-within-a-nation". This is how the situation's viewed from both sides in the USA currently, and how I believe they should be treated in Canada.

Greater political and economic independence is the solution to this problem in my mind. After forcing them onto reserves (and promising them mineral and resource rights to the reserves and payment for the $$ the rest of the country makes off of their former territory that they VOLUNTARILY sold to us), the least we could have done was keep up with the payments and actually given them the mineral/resource rights:p

By taking these rights away, we took away any chance of them becoming economically self sufficient. I think we should work towards creating economic diversity within reserves (with the money all going directly to the band).

I don;t think native americans wanting to seperate is a problem at all. It's tough for us to conceptualize (we're used to viewing our world in terms of nation states geographically, and obviously that wouldn't work out in this case). However, it would greatly sadden me that we (canada) couldn't come up with something to somehow give them greater autonomy and hold up our end of the bargain to make them want to stay with us.