Discipline

[ashcrbra]

I don't want to sound like a power tripper but I'd like to know some practical methods of discipline for use at the LHQ. I'm one of the senior cadets in my Sqn and now discipline has become one of my jobs. I'm having some difficulties with it because I don't know what limits I have and I'm just looking for some input from some more experienced people.

[SgtIsernewfie]

People dont listen to me...Im a friggen flight sergeant and I had AC's laughing in my face when Id tell them to do smething last year...

[Cenk]

It's not just the work of the individual NCO. The NCO core has to work together to achieve descipline among cadets. If you're having trouble with one cadet, then you pass it on to the next rank up. Also work together in groups. I you have two or three NCOs telling one cadet to do something then it'll get done. Also, I find that threats work great. Whether it be a meeting with the Swo, or the CO, DCO ect. But if you aren't planning on carrying through with it then don't even try it. It'll you more loss in respect then you can imagine. It also might be good to create a diciplinary action. My squadron does "extra drill" during canteen. This doesn't allow cadets to get their social hour or their chocolate/pop. Your NCO core should work as a team to tackle the issue. Even though I'm just a SGT, I'm a smart SGT. I have seen it all, from defiant cadets to goody two shoes (no offence meant by that ;) ) Good luck on your discipline problems and keep us posted on what you think works and what doesn't.

[sgt4life]

Some people feel that by yelling and screaming at the cadets who are doing things wrong wil instill discipline in them. It won't. What you have to do is yell and scream at them in such a way as to make them WANT to do whatever it is you want them to do. For example, instead of telling them they're no good lousy and rotten cause they aren't stanging properly at attention, tell them things like you want them to be the best flight on parade, that you want to officers to walk by and say "whoah, which flight is that?" cause they look so awesome because they're doing it right.

[N. McKay]

I'm having some difficulties with it because I don't know what limits I have

I suggest that you start by reading CATO 13-24 (all of it, dry as it may be). It's the CATO that establishes the CHAP programme. That way, you'll be able to understand the real limits you have to consider, not the rumours and falsehoods that are spread through the national grapevine.

[roman_d]

to tell you the truth, the ncos that dont get respect, are quite frankly the ones that dont deserve it. im a sergeant in my squadron and i have had to deal with disciplining cadets, i have never had "repeat-offenders". threats work great, but i find if the cadets get told they are going to have a meeting with the cheif, they wont act accordingly. however, if they see one of their partners in crime actually go for a meeting with the cheif, its a different story. always use the chain of command when dealing with discipline issues, because it always works. i find the discipline issue starts at the nco body. if the nco body has no discipline/respect in regards to each other, the cadets get the same attitude.

[ashcrbra]

Well thanks for everyone's guidance or help. I think it should help me out with my duties :air:

[WO2 Mandal]

I think cadets are scared of me lol

[Cenk]

That's not always a bad thing ;) Lol :air:

[DrillGOD822]

Here's what I learned in discipline class at my squadron: If you are somewhere...and you're the highest rank, and you're in a group of cadets that are all lower ranks than you, if they do something bad or stupid, you will get the most out of it (trouble). Now I find that true, because it was my duty to watch the cadets but what if I didn't know what was going on? How would that fall in? Would the cadets that I know still get in trouble for what they've done and I would be left out because I was the last to know what was going on? or would my cadets get a good talk and then carry-on and I would be the one with getting the most of it from an officer (CIC officer)?

Help...please lol

[2Lt Ferreira]

Depends if you are supervising.. then anything that happens is your issue and you have to deal with it more or less. If they are cadets in your flight and your not in the room and they are in another with another supervisor you may be called in to help discipline but its not your fault. But really it depends on what is going on.

[M Jarosz]

Here's what I learned in discipline class at my squadron: If you are somewhere...and you're the highest rank, and you're in a group of cadets that are all lower ranks than you, if they do something bad or stupid, you will get the most out of it (trouble). Now I find that true, because it was my duty to watch the cadets but what if I didn't know what was going on? How would that fall in? Would the cadets that I know still get in trouble for what they've done and I would be left out because I was the last to know what was going on? or would my cadets get a good talk and then carry-on and I would be the one with getting the most of it from an officer (CIC officer)?

Help...please lol

I also think it depends what rank you are. You as a sargent are still in the being taught leadership and all that jazz, seniors will not expect you to "take charge" in every situation. However once you are a senior cadet(ie Chief), it is your resposibility to have your cadets acting appropriatly. Whether you actually get in trouble is up in the air. I highly doubt that you would be yelled at or given a written warning, however you could end up with a little chat about profesionalism and (hopefully) some guidance on how to prevent stuff from happening.

[Mr G]

Here's what I learned in discipline class at my squadron: If you are somewhere...and you're the highest rank, and you're in a group of cadets that are all lower ranks than you, if they do something bad or stupid, you will get the most out of it (trouble). Now I find that true, because it was my duty to watch the cadets but what if I didn't know what was going on? How would that fall in? Would the cadets that I know still get in trouble for what they've done and I would be left out because I was the last to know what was going on? or would my cadets get a good talk and then carry-on and I would be the one with getting the most of it from an officer (CIC officer)?

Help...please lol

Before I answer the question from my (one officer's) perspective, I'd like you to keep in mind that it is one perspective.

When you're in a cadet situation, you are to act first and foremost as a cadet is expected to. When you become a senior cadet, you get the added bonus of also having to: 1) be a leader and set the good example; 2) keep an eye on the cadets in your company and correct their behavior as required. In my opinion the decision to discipline you is more subjective than anything else. My first inclination would be to give you enough instruction to get the situation under control (there's no point in me doing it, you might as well learn something), then worry about discipline later. I always expect to hold the most senior cadet responsible - I hate the blame game.

This isn't an ironclad thing, the only rule of thumb to be had here is than in general the most senior cadet is held responsible. Personally, I would not be disciplining the cadets without disciplining their supervisor as well (again, a general rule, speaking for what I'm assuming you're referring to - issues with behavior, not doing something, etc). I don't think that it's great for morale and building trust in a leader if the leader is not subject to the discipline alongside the cadets.

[J-P Johnson]

Concerning holding the leader responsible for all actions of their subordinates:

I think the rule of thumb is that there can't be a rule of thumb. Every situation is different and you can't have a blanket policy that covers all eventualities.

It's a question of due diligence.

As a leader you can do everything right and one of your subordinates may still manage to find a way to do something bone-headed.

The matter of whether to discipline the leader comes down to the question: "Did the leader do everything that could reasonably been expected of them in the situation?". Note I say 'reasonably'. You can't be everywhere and you can't micromanage.

But, you must have taken those reasonable steps.

I'll post about the application of discipline by NCO's in a little while...

[Mr G]

I much prefer your wording sir. There's too many scenarios to cover with a blanket statement.

[J-P Johnson]

I'm afraid that when most cadets say "discipline" they actually mean "punish" and punishment isn't something that you are authorized to do. One previous post said something like 'the people who complain about getting no respect often are the ones who least deserve it." There's a lot of truth to that. Perhaps they are ill-equiped for the leadership role they are in but many comments make me think that subordinates are regarded by these people with a mixture of fear and contempt and very, very, little respect.

Yelling doesn't work for long nor do threats, "supplemental drill", taking away privileges or any other punishment if they are overused. If you beat a dog constantly then they will other come to a point where they give up and no amount of beating will work, or they will turn on you.

For one thing, if you are trying to use cause and effect, you have to remember to reward good behaviour too. Don't wait for perfect behaviour because it'll never come but sometimes rewarding small improvements can be useful too. Just don't go the opposite way and provide too much praise or you will lose their respect then too.

Someone else mentioned the importance NCO cadre (at every level) working as a team. That is VERY true. Supporting each other goes a LONG way in solving discipline issues. But that just doesn't mean providing a united front, it also means supporting those having difficulty including, sometimes, reining them in if they are power-tripping.

[Carter]

Thank you for your post; I am pretty sure that is the best post written regards to this topic.


I think the greatest threat to leadership are those who got away with abuse in Cadets/organization; then are arrogant enough to say that treating people with respect is wrong, thus you are a bad leader. '

[LionRichelleTaylor]

the thing with dsicipline is it needs to be reinforced gradually after years. as yougrow into a leader, the need to grow too. you need to show them that you stand by your word. if you tell them your going to do something, do it. if you have hollow threats they will walk all over you. pick what kind of po or chief your going to be and stick by it. dont switch from being a hardcore jerk-wad and then be a softy the next week.

[TorontoSSCGuy]

How about "If you don't get your flight's uniforms squared away you are going to be written up and demoted!!!!!!!"? I heard an awful lot of unhappy comments recently and am stuck between a rock and a hard place.






I'm afraid that when most cadets say "discipline" they actually mean "punish" and punishment isn't something that you are authorized to do. One previous post said something like 'the people who complain about getting no respect often are the ones who least deserve it." There's a lot of truth to that. Perhaps they are ill-equiped for the leadership role they are in but many comments make me think that subordinates are regarded by these people with a mixture of fear and contempt and very, very, little respect.

Yelling doesn't work for long nor do threats, "supplemental drill", taking away privileges or any other punishment if they are overused. If you beat a dog constantly then they will other come to a point where they give up and no amount of beating will work, or they will turn on you.

For one thing, if you are trying to use cause and effect, you have to remember to reward good behaviour too. Don't wait for perfect behaviour because it'll never come but sometimes rewarding small improvements can be useful too. Just don't go the opposite way and provide too much praise or you will lose their respect then too.

Someone else mentioned the importance NCO cadre (at every level) working as a team. That is VERY true. Supporting each other goes a LONG way in solving discipline issues. But that just doesn't mean providing a united front, it also means supporting those having difficulty including, sometimes, reining them in if they are power-tripping.

[2Lt Ferreira]

Who told you that? I would be amazed if a CO demoted a Sgt. or otherwise because his flight had bad uniform marks.

[Niteshade]

I am going to jump in here.

Discipline is not synonymous with respect. Mental and physical discipline is all about remaining focused on a particular task regardless of outside forces. Standing at attention despite your feet hurting, working on a particular task despite fatigue due to lack of sleep or boredom. Just some examples.

Respect is demanded too much, and often never earned. Too many media sources cite the need for people to pay their respects. The saying respect is earned is too true. Remember that. When it comes time for the troops to eat at the canteen - make sure the junior ranks eat/go first, then the next rank up, until the upper NCO's have their turn. Officers go last. This shows that you value their needs before your own. If you have a rain jacket and your LAC forgot his - hand him yours and YOU get wet. If the duty sucks (sentry/fire picket) make sure you take the tough shift. Don't show favoritism either when scheduling.

When your troops do well - give them breaks. If you find the material during a drill class was completed successfully and early - cut them loose for break early. Let them know this in advance of the class and coach them towards success. It's in your interest too.

Outside of the drill square/class room - be their friend. This is two fold - these are people you will be friends with a long long time to come. I have friends from cadets I don't see often at all, but we are always really happy to see each other. Even after a decade apart. Secondly, this shows you are a human being, and they will always want to help their friend rather than ignore "some fSgt" who is giving orders.

As J-P Johnson has mentioned, there is no cookie cutter method here, it is a learned skill, but those are my opinions which I hope can help.

Best,

Brad

[Tight_eyez]

@ Niteshade: +1.

Seriously, I can't even count how many times respect has been "demanded" but there has not been any action to earn it.

This is a viewpoint from a (former) junior cadet though so maybe take it with a grain of salt or w/e.

Anyways, my point is that you can't demand respect until you've done something amazing that deserves respect and even then who cares of some people don't respect you, you know you've done right and in the end that's all that really matters. I like using the example of Lady Godiva (I take her almost as my "patron saint" of sorts, next to "Guan Yu" the "patron saint" of brotherhood and righteousness). Anyways Lady Godiva deserves a lot of respect, doing what she did (search her up on wikipedia or w/e, "Lady Godiva of Coventry"). Tell me how many of you (who are complaining that "the juniors never show me respect, QQ") have ever done something as or even close to as selfless as Lady Godiva?

I'm a bit tired right now so if this doesn't make any sense then I'll edit it tomorrow but I thought I'd share my take on "discipline" and "respect".

[N. McKay]

In an organization such as ours, a certain amount of respect is due to people simply by virtue of their rank or position. A complete stranger who outranks you is owed your respect, whether he or she has saved a busload of children from an oncoming train, or just done his or her job well enough to be promoted.

[Niteshade]

In an organization such as ours, a certain amount of respect is due to people simply by virtue of their rank or position. A complete stranger who outranks you is owed your respect, whether he or she has saved a busload of children from an oncoming train, or just done his or her job well enough to be promoted.

Negative. See my previous post regarding deserving respect. A person I have never met has not earned my respect yet. However, They are of higher rank, which translates to me following their orders as I have been trained to do. Mental discipline is what is being employed.

However, we are straying from the original posters request for advice/guidance in leading his/her cadets.

Remember, this is cadets, not the military. While it is very much paramilitary in rank/structure - at the end of the day it is a civilian organization which is to teach young adults certain unique skills not found anywhere else. Ergo - a balance of military discipline and civi-street smarts works best - not just one, or just the other.

Brad

[Juice]

Negative. See my previous post regarding deserving respect. A person I have never met has not earned my respect yet. However, They are of higher rank, which translates to me following their orders as I have been trained to do. Mental discipline is what is being employed.

However, we are straying from the original posters request for advice/guidance in leading his/her cadets.
Nites
You just confirmed the intent of N. McKay's post. The respect you are required to show them is through following their orders and not defying what they say/talk back to them either in front or behind their backs.

JB

[RMC 24409]

Well, I got out of Cadets in 2004, so a while ago, but I remember very well my last summer. I was Ops WO2 at TACTC (Trenton). I had a couple of sergeants who were not too keen on using their heads to resolve problems or would use all the excuses to get leave at the expense of others. That being said, that summer we lost a few staff cadets because they got busted for drugs. I had to enforce discipline to maintain a proper order at work. This isn't saying they were doing unproper work, it was just challenging to get people to commit to work the shifts they were due to work. Mind you keeping watch at a gate for hours isn't great work either.

But all that to say that discipline shouldn't be applied or not applied in the goal of gaining respect. Respect can sometimes be a luxury. You do what you have to do. That's it. Do it well and you might get a form of recognition that's called respect. More often you don't because people are generally very bad at understanding the responsabilities of the position above theirs.

[Niteshade]

Ah - I see what you are saying...

Respect the rank, not the person.

Hrm. I think my points have been made.

Brad

[J-P Johnson]

Ah - I see what you are saying...

Respect the rank, not the person.

Hrm. I think my points have been made.

Brad
No, that's not it at all.

One of the problems with your last few posts is that you are trying to apply one aspect of respect to the entire concept.

There is deference that the subordinate owes the superior. That type of respect can be demanded. If you are a cadet sergeant and you meet up with a FSgt from, say, another sqn - you owe and they can demand your respect.

There is also respect that is to be held in high regard. And I sorry Tighteyez but this doesn't require any superhero-ish accomplishments. Someone who comes to work day after day simply doing their job well can earn my respect.

Now, niteshade, the laundry list of things that a leader can do to earn respect that you posted previously seem to fit my challenge to put subordinates before self but is overly simplistic and are, in fact, a bit cookie cutter-ish themselves.

Your priority list for eating, for example. The goal is to ensure that your subordinates are fed properly. The best way to help ensure that is to eat last but you shouldn't become a slave to a formula. Maybe you will need a couple of sgts to eat first because of a tasking that needs to be done while the rest of the sqn is eating. A leader must also be flexible.

The parable of the rain jacket: while I have given up my jacket, sometimes a cadet will learn more if you let them get wet. Not so they are endangered in any way, mind you.

A lot of your other advice seems to grow out of mistaken ideas of the qualities of a leader.

Giving yourself the tough shift, for example. Toughness is a mistaken quality of leadership.

And I said be friendly - not their friend. There is a distinct difference between the two.

I dunno, there are so many aspects to your last few posts (and Tighteyez posts too) that I could address that I could write all day about it but I guess it all boils down to something I said earlier - avoid cookie cutter answers.

[Rhino Rob]

And I said be friendly - not their friend. There is a distinct difference between the two.

I dunno, there are so many aspects to your last few posts (and Tighteyez posts too) that I could address that I could write all day about it but I guess it all boils down to something I said earlier - avoid cookie cutter answers.:woot:

[DA Wright]

Well said, J-P. I should point out as well that respect ought to flow two ways. A leader must respect his/her followers, and be mindful of their trust. To suggest that one shouldn't respect someone in authority until that person has somehow 'earned' such respect, would also imply the reverse, that subordinates ought not be trusted or respected until THEY have shown they deserve it. Clearly, that would not work. Respect is something that can be stenghtened or weakened by the example set, and it can be regained or lost. But showing respect, acting respectfully, and defference to a person in a position in authority remains paramount, particularly within a cadet or military context.

[J-P Johnson]

Well said, J-P. I should point out as well that respect ought to flow two ways. A leader must respect his/her followers, and be mindful of their trust. To suggest that one shouldn't respect someone in authority until that person has somehow 'earned' such respect, would also imply the reverse, that subordinates ought not be trusted or respected until THEY have shown they deserve it. Clearly, that would not work. Respect is something that can be stenghtened or weakened by the example set, and it can be regained or lost. But showing respect, acting respectfully, and defference to a person in a position in authority remains paramount, particularly within a cadet or military context.

I concur. As I have said before, often the person who complains that they don't receive the respect they deserve is the same person who doesn't give the respect to others that they deserve.