Does anyone else think our priorities are a bit messed up...

[Lil Lightnin]

After watching the election campaign it hit me:
Issues like same-sex marriage, abortion and the legalization of pot get a lot of coverage, comparable to the amount that things like health care, the environment, and the military get.
I'm not trying to say that any of the preceeding issues aren't important, but isn't it a little silly to worry about two gay guys getting married when there are people dying in line waiting to have life threatening illnesses taken care of, or a persons right to get stoned when our soldiers are flying 50 year old helicopters...

Seems a bit odd to me.

[whitefang]

yeah, i think it's the media just trying to pick up on things that are more interseting so they can get more people watching them instead of the other guy. that's just my thoughts anyway

[wb256]

Priorities depend on CULTURE. CULTURE decides our values, what's important to us, etc.

Clearly, Canada is a multi-cultural country where different people with different values in life live. Just because these issues don't mean much to you, they do to countless others.

And you're in no position to tell us that our way of thinking is wrong and that these things shouldn't matter to us.

[The Blue Tory]

Hmm...

I expect to see Martin bring up legislation on Abortion and same sex considering he was the one that brought it up... If he doesn't then he is a bloody hypocrit...

[wb256]

Hmm...

I expect to see Martin bring up legislation on Abortion and same sex considering he was the one that brought it up... If he doesn't then he is a bloody hypocrit...


Yes, blame the liberals!

Jesus, it didn't even have anything to do with this thread.

[Lil Lightnin]

Just because these issues don't mean much to you, they do to countless others.


I'm not trying to say that any of the preceeding issues aren't important

Don't make this a shouting match...too many of these threads turn into them. I asked a question, and gave my opinion, and asked for yours.
As for different cultures having different values, I'd suggest that you'd have a hard time finding many people, regardless of their ethnic background, that would place marijuana above health care.

But this is only my opinion.

[DMCorrigan]

Guys, keep it civil. There's no need to fight, and Lightnin' is right; too many of these threads become battles. Keep it civil.

[Ching]

Welllllll.... I don't know. Mike, you bring up a good point...
But I don't think it's a matter of the media giving coverage to the interesting stuff... after all, the media can only cover what the politicians are saying, they can't cover what they're not saying.
I think that the politicians know the importance of medicare and the military, but they've been debated and debated, and now people need to know where the politicians stand on other issues. It's not so much a matter of importance, it's a matter of what's already been debated into the ground.


I might be completely wrong, but I don't think so. :)

[wb256]

Don't make this a shouting match...too many of these threads turn into them. I asked a question, and gave my opinion, and asked for yours.
As for different cultures having different values, I'd suggest that you'd have a hard time finding many people, regardless of their ethnic background, that would place marijuana above health care.

But this is only my opinion.

I said culture, not ethnicity. A culture dosn't need to belong to a specific ethnic group to be considered valid.

Marijuana smokers are a cultural group all in themselves. Not going to jail is as important as proper healthcare for some people.

Either way, these are what some people value. I didn't start a shouting match, it's tough to shout into a keyboard. I use block caps to emphasize points. I simply gave my opinion.

[wb256]

Welllllll.... I don't know. Mike, you bring up a good point...
But I don't think it's a matter of the media giving coverage to the interesting stuff... after all, the media can only cover what the politicians are saying, they can't cover what they're not saying.
I think that the politicians know the importance of medicare and the military, but they've been debated and debated, and now people need to know where the politicians stand on other issues. It's not so much a matter of importance, it's a matter of what's already been debated into the ground.


I might be completely wrong, but I don't think so. :)

Another point is that all major parties had SOMEWHAT similar platforms when it comes to foreign policy and medicare. There may be slight difference, but none of them will disband our military or give us a huge one...and none of them will cancel medicare outright.

It's these smaller issues that really set the parties apart.

[Lil Lightnin]

Marijuana smokers are a cultural group all in themselves. Not going to jail is as important as proper healthcare for some people.

I don't doubt that. However, what I'm suggesting is, that based on the number of people that would worry about going to jail vs. health care (which is a very small number in comparison) doesn't justify the amount of air time some of these issues recieve.
There's always the exception, but I'm throwing out the idea that:

Servicemen/women dying in outdated equipment & proper medicare > people complaining about things that'll get them thrown in jail

Don't turn this into a marijuana legislation debate either.

[wb256]

I don't doubt that. However, what I'm suggesting is, that based on the number of people that would worry about going to jail vs. health care (which is a very small number in comparison) doesn't justify the amount of air time some of these issues recieve.
There's always the exception, but I'm throwing out the idea that:

Servicemen/women dying in outdated equipment & proper medicare > people complaining about things that'll get them thrown in jail

Don't turn this into a marijuana legislation debate either.

My point is that people care more about the issues that effect them directly. Since everyone was proposing the same solution to the healthcare issue (throw money at it, don't privitize it) then the main issues that effect them (or their friends) directly involve marijuana legalization and minority rights (homosexuality).

[DMCorrigan]

Certain things are known as "mother issues". Everyone is against child porn. Everyone is up for better health care. Everyone is in favor of better pensions for our seniors.

Health care is a non-issue because EVERYONE is up to fix it. Issues like marajuana legalization, same-sex marriages, and abortion were the top issues for the voters, because health care is an automatic promise to fix.

[Lil Lightnin]

Health care is a non-issue because EVERYONE is up to fix it.

It's hardly a non-issue. We have two different sides to this arguement, and it is still yet to be resolved by either one. IN MY PERSONAL OPINION it should probably be important to resolve this problem where PEOPLE ARE DYING, before we worry about the marriage of two people of the same sex, which has been the same for hundreds of years and has not effected the health of any people. :rolleyes:

[DMCorrigan]

It's hardly a non-issue. We have two different sides to this arguement, and it is still yet to be resolved by either one. IN MY PERSONAL OPINION it should probably be important to resolve this problem where PEOPLE ARE DYING, before we worry about the marriage of two people of the same sex, which has been the same for hundreds of years and has not effected the health of any people. :rolleyes:

What I mean is everyone wants to fix it. Progress will be made in one direction or another.

[Lil Lightnin]

Just like how everyone wants the proper definition of marriage to be recognized...

[Bos'n101]

Just like how everyone wants the proper definition of marriage to be recognized...
You mean this?
A legally recognized and/or socially approved arrangement between two or more individuals that carries certain rights and obligations and usually involves sexual activity
Sorry, I had to.
I'm forced to agree that the issues which received the strongest attention were ones that I personally would have put on the back burner. I think that the parties were trying to focus on area's which hadn't been major issues in other recent elections, in order to give them the chance to hit something that they don't already have a history with.
Healthcare, and Military have been deciding factors recently, and we all know the way that the parties stand, and indeed act on these issues.
This gave them something that we hadn't heard them lie about yet!

[The Blue Tory]

I believe that if issues moral or not are brought into the forefront of a campaign that they should be dealt with by the party that brought them up, if they get in power, within the term following the election...

[Lil Lightnin]

You mean this?


I didn't SAY what the proper definition was...I just said that every individual wants it to be recognized. The arguement arises when different groups push their own definitions that they believe are proper.

[The Blue Tory]

on the way from the polling station to the CPC Mississauga Erindale campaign party, a former Alliance candidate, brought up a really good point being, how can one say no to marriage yet say yes to civil unions...

With that said, what exactly is the difference between the two?

[Earlam]

on the way from the polling station to the CPC Mississauga Erindale campaign party, a former Alliance candidate, brought up a really good point being, how can one say no to marriage yet say yes to civil unions...

With that said, what exactly is the difference between the two?

As I gather, just the name of the thing.
I think the legal side is pretty much identical......

The pro-gay-marriage dudes want the name......
I think most of the anti-gay-marriage dudes would be fine giving them the legal side of it, without the name (I know that's where I stand, but hey...).

[piper]

The issues that got the most attention are the ones that are the most sensational. A video clip of a bunch of kids smoking pot and then fighting back against the oncoming police (sorry, facist hordes I guess is what they call them now), or a story about some gay people making fools of themselves trying to get married is more 'sensational' then the real issues, long lines at hospitals, national security, our military. Maybye if some CF personell chained themselves to parliament hill or got a really obnoxious lobby group, maybye people would pay attention, or maybye we need more to die in our armed forces before anyone pays attention (whenever somone in the CF dies, then people pay attention, for a bit. But then it usually turns into an american bashing fest or the politiciens blame the generals for bad equipment when it really is the fault of gov't...). Its sad really. Mrs. Britney Spears kissing another girl gets more media attention then a real issue to society, like health care, or our military. Our priorites ARE messed up, people putting their own entertainment our selfish pipe-dreams before those that could be to the betterment of society. The general population needs a good kick in the arse and a very strong wake up call to the realities of life.

[Ching]

the oncoming police (sorry, facist hordes I guess is what they call them now), or a story about some gay people making fools of themselves trying to get married is more 'sensational' then the real issues,
See, I agreed with the rest of your post... but was this part really necessary? I don't think anyone in the media thinks poorly of the police, or if they do, I haven't heard about it.
And why is it that two guys getting married is more ridiculous than a guy and a girl getting married? You've clearly never watched one of those "For Better Or For Worse" shows... episode after episode of ridiculous straight people.

[Lil Lightnin]

I think most of the anti-gay-marriage dudes would be fine giving them the legal side of it, without the name (I know that's where I stand, but hey...).

I think both sides would agree that a man and a man together is HARDLY the same as a man and a woman, so why would they want to be called marriage?
I'd make some dumb analogy about sandwiches or something...but I'm too lazy.

[Bos'n101]

I think both sides would agree that a man and a man together is HARDLY the same as a man and a woman, so why would they want to be called marriage?
I'd make some dumb analogy about sandwiches or something...but I'm too lazy.
*WARNING: OPINIONATED POST-READ AT YOUR OWN RISK*
I'm neither pro-gay, nor anti-gay. I am pro-equality, and you know what? A union between two people who love and care for each other is the same no matter what the sex of the parties is. There is, as far as I'm concerned, no difference! People resisted when interracial marriages started to become more revealed. This is the same thing, society attempting to infringe upon the rights of a minority group. Say what you will, but if we deny equal rights to the homosexual community, then it would be no different than the laws Western societies used to have, regarding the rights of non-white people. One would think that the Holocaust would have openned our eyes to what decrimanation does, but apparently a massacre only teaches a lesson regarding the specific circumstances for some people!
*I warned you! Comment was not directed at anyone here*

[Lil Lightnin]

I seriously don't doubt that we'll see this full issue taken care of in the next 5 years or so. Obviously in favour of the homosexuals and the people that support them.
But when you see those massive gay pride parades, you have to think about the message they're trying to send. The message I get anyway is that they're different than heterosexuals, but still want to be accepted nonetheless and have equal rights.
I say give them their own union, call it whatever you want, but preserve the word "marriage" for a man and a woman.

[Earlam]

*WARNING: OPINIONATED POST-READ AT YOUR OWN RISK*
I'm neither pro-gay, nor anti-gay. I am pro-equality, and you know what? A union between two people who love and care for each other is the same no matter what the sex of the parties is. There is, as far as I'm concerned, no difference! People resisted when interracial marriages started to become more revealed. This is the same thing, society attempting to infringe upon the rights of a minority group. Say what you will, but if we deny equal rights to the homosexual community, then it would be no different than the laws Western societies used to have, regarding the rights of non-white people. One would think that the Holocaust would have openned our eyes to what decrimanation does, but apparently a massacre only teaches a lesson regarding the specific circumstances for some people!
*I warned you! Comment was not directed at anyone here*

With reference to this comment, if it were directed at my comment (which it wasn't, as stated by author of aforementioned post, but I'll toss it in anyways, just to be on the safe side).

Giving the homosexual community 'civil union' and not 'marriage' is not discriminatory in any way (that I can see).
They are the same legally. The only difference is the name.
And, marriage traditionally being a union between a man and a woman, why change this? It's political correctness run amok!

I can see no advantage to calling homosexual unions 'marriage' over 'civil union'. There is no difference in what they are (besides name).

This is much like the 'humankind' thing. Does adding an extra 'hu' add or detract anything from the meaning of the word?

(As a sidenote, I think making a point of calling it 'humankind' is stupid.)

[Ching]

(As a sidenote, I think making a point of calling it 'humankind' is stupid.)
Why bother making up a word to mean the same thing as two already existing ones? :rolleyes:


(The two already existing ones are "mankind" and "humanity")
Finally, something we agree on, Mr Mitchell! :D

[DMCorrigan]

Finally, something we agree on, Mr Mitchell! :D

AMAZING! :eek:

[Bos'n101]

I think the parades are more to send a message to the world that they are people too, and that they do not have a problem.
By the same logic, there is no advantage that I can see in creating a new term for people getting together in a legal union.
The way its descriminatory is that it points out that there is a difference, where, as you have stated, as far as the legalities are concerned, there is none.
To use your own example, its not mankind and womankind, mankind is the proper term for the whole race. Just as marriage is the proper term for all legal unions of two or indeed more people, if the culture allows polygamy.

PS-humankind is a stupid word, which has no need to exist!

[piper]

My comment about how certain (i said certain, not all) news outlets see the police was called for. You can tell whether a paper is left leaning or right leaning by reading the description of a protest and what the police did. And talk to some kids sometime, see what alot of them think of the police.

And as the gay marriages. I've been thinking. Lately, thanks to a certain (bisexual) female friend of mine, I have been around many of her lesbo friends (yes I call them that) rather often. Its interesting to see their views on things, and maybye I'm a little more understanding now. But, what I never here them say is whine about marriages, civil unions etc etc. They don't go and grab the nearest TV camera and proclaim their love for each other while we eat our breakfast (and two guys kissing DOES NOT make my meal go down any better). So if these people can be less...annoying about it, why can't everyone in the gay community? Take what you have for now, maybye It'll change, or maybye it won't. You can't always get what you want when you want it.

[wb256]

And talk to some kids sometime, see what alot of them think of the police.



You know what? MAYBE there's a reason for this. Not all police officers but some seem to rather enjoy harassing kids.

I witnessed my best friend get beaten sensless with nightsticks...for no reason at all really. I've gotten smacked around a few times when I offered no resistance and I was doing nothing wrong.

Better yet, watch how some of them treat young natives americans. I've seen some viscious stuff.

I realize that this isn't all police, a few bad appled are ruining their good image. By the same token, a few bad apples are ruining the image of marijuana smokers.

[wb256]

And as the gay marriages. I've been thinking. Lately, thanks to a certain (bisexual) female friend of mine, I have been around many of her lesbo friends (yes I call them that) rather often. Its interesting to see their views on things, and maybye I'm a little more understanding now. But, what I never here them say is whine about marriages, civil unions etc etc. They don't go and grab the nearest TV camera and proclaim their love for each other while we eat our breakfast (and two guys kissing DOES NOT make my meal go down any better). So if these people can be less...annoying about it, why can't everyone in the gay community? Take what you have for now, maybye It'll change, or maybye it won't. You can't always get what you want when you want it.

Because all gays and lesbians want the exact same things and think the same way. How old are your ledsbian friends? Their views might be different if they were older and ready to settle down.

As for 2 guys kissing making your meal awful...how about an ugly guy and an ugly girl? I have to see that lots, but I deal with it.

There's a LOT of stuff in society that I don't want to see, but I have something called respect for other people.

[Ching]

As for 2 guys kissing making your meal awful...how about an ugly guy and an ugly girl? I have to see that lots, but I deal with it..
and besides... if you want your meal to go down easy, just don't watch tv when you're eating!
It always surprises me how many people have tvs in their kitchens. I'm not ALLOWED to have the tv on when I'm eating. Use that time to make pleasant conversation, or listen to some light music. It's nice.

[DMCorrigan]

and besides... if you want your meal to go down easy, just don't watch tv when you're eating!
It always surprises me how many people have tvs in their kitchens. I'm not ALLOWED to have the tv on when I'm eating. Use that time to make pleasant conversation, or listen to some light music. It's nice.

Hehe, my family has our bigscreen just in the next room, and my dad always turns it on during dinner... but then mom gets home and simply points, and it suddenly turns off... :D THE POWER OF MOM! :P

[piper]

You know what? MAYBE there's a reason for this. Not all police officers but some seem to rather enjoy harassing kids.

I witnessed my best friend get beaten sensless with nightsticks...for no reason at all really. I've gotten smacked around a few times when I offered no resistance and I was doing nothing wrong.

Better yet, watch how some of them treat young natives americans. I've seen some viscious stuff.

I realize that this isn't all police, a few bad appled are ruining their good image. By the same token, a few bad apples are ruining the image of marijuana smokers.

Most cops won't just beat up kids for no reason. Trust me. It looks bad. There are very few bad cops these days...except maybye in Toronto :p . I'm sure they had ba reason to get your buddy. They treat people equally for the most part. If you have not comitted a crime, you have nothing to fear from the police. **** them off, thats your own dumb fault.

[wb256]

Most cops won't just beat up kids for no reason. Trust me. It looks bad. There are very few bad cops these days...except maybye in Toronto :p . I'm sure they had ba reason to get your buddy. They treat people equally for the most part. If you have not comitted a crime, you have nothing to fear from the police. **** them off, thats your own dumb fault.

I'd like to see a source for this.

My friend was beaten up because his was a bisexual native. I guess that was reason enough.

There's a world outside of the suburbs...and it's not pretty.

Not that I by any means think that all police are corrupt and senselessly violent, but it does happen. I've witnessed it and dealt with it.

I've also dealt with a lot of police officers that were great people and have helped me out of tough situations numerous times.

My point is that the image ogf the police being "fascist hordes" isn't due to a biased leftwing media.

I realize this is American, but does the name "Rodney King" ring a bell?

[Bos'n101]

So if these people can be less...annoying about it, why can't everyone in the gay community? Take what you have for now, maybye It'll change, or maybye it won't. You can't always get what you want when you want it.
Is that also your view of Martin Luthor King?

[piper]

Is that also your view of Martin Luthor King?

Nope, because I liked what he was fighting for. Seeing as I don't care a whit about gay marriages, I feel free to have a different opinion on them. Wonderful thing, opinions. I can have as many as I want, in any way I want, and not care even a wee little bit.

[DMCorrigan]

Nope, because I liked what he was fighting for. Seeing as I don't care a whit about gay marriages, I feel free to have a different opinion on them. Wonderful thing, opinions. I can have as many as I want, in any way I want, and not care even a wee little bit.

Then why should people debating against you "care even a wee little bit" about your opinions? If you don't care, then why should they?

[prettypinksailor]

i came into this thread kinda late but ill say my peice

First of all Everything is important to EVERY party they just tend to say more about what the people what to hear...and saying this im sure alot of ppl are ****** that they didnt say much about Medicare
second just because a party doesnt say much about something doesnt mean they havent thought about what they will do about it when (and if) they are elected. Politicians arent as stupid as people think. i am sure come time that all these issues raised and many others will be delt with by our new government

[Bos'n101]

Nope, because I liked what he was fighting for. Seeing as I don't care a whit about gay marriages, I feel free to have a different opinion on them. Wonderful thing, opinions. I can have as many as I want, in any way I want, and not care even a wee little bit.
But why take the time to formulate, and spread your opinion if you don't care

even a wee little bit.?????

[piper]

But why take the time to formulate, and spread your opinion if you don't care
?????

Because I can, and I like to share my opinions with the rest of the world. I also like hearing their counter arguments, it is most interesting. And you guys don't have to 'listen' (or whatever you do like that on the internet) to me, thats your call. But anyways, back to more useful arguing.

[prettypinksailor]

yeah but still if you dont care when people ask you why dont you just say i dont care instead of stating your opinion and wasting peoples time its just a waste of breath and people are just going to think your stupid for having an opinion about something you dont care about like yeah your entitled to your opinion on EVERYTHING but why waste your time thinking of your opinion wasting your breath stating it when you dont even care?

[piper]

yeah but still if you dont care when people ask you why dont you just say i dont care instead of stating your opinion and wasting peoples time its just a waste of breath and people are just going to think your stupid for having an opinion about something you dont care about like yeah your entitled to your opinion on EVERYTHING but why waste your time thinking of your opinion wasting your breath stating it when you dont even care?

And now in plain english that meant... Its not that I don't care about the issues, I care very much about the issues. What happens is, people refute me or tell me that I'm wrong..thats ok. Then they go on to say how my opinions are misplaced, biased or un informed. To that, I don't care. I care about the issues, I just don't care what people think about my opinions. They like it great, they don't like it, great.

And would it not be a waste of finegr energy instead of breath, seeing as we are on the internet...just a thought.

[Bos'n101]

And with that, I second your motion to return to a more meaningful debate.

PS-I wasn't arguing per say, simply analyzing, and differentiating between our opinions.

[Lola]

So if these people can be less...annoying about it, why can't everyone in the gay community? Take what you have for now, maybye It'll change, or maybye it won't. You can't always get what you want when you want it.

You do realize that if the homosexual community had equal rights they probably wouldn't be doing these "annoying" things, right? Until then, suck it up.

[prettypinksailor]

And now in plain english that meant... Its not that I don't care about the issues, I care very much about the issues. What happens is, people refute me or tell me that I'm wrong..thats ok. Then they go on to say how my opinions are misplaced, biased or un informed. To that, I don't care. I care about the issues, I just don't care what people think about my opinions. They like it great, they don't like it, great.

And would it not be a waste of finegr energy instead of breath, seeing as we are on the internet...just a thought.
Hey im sorry. i was really tired and upset when i posted earlier sorry i misenterpreted what you said Piper i hope you are willing to forgive me

[DMCorrigan]

You do realize that if the homosexual community had equal rights they probably wouldn't be doing these "annoying" things, right? Until then, suck it up.

Play nice. No need to be snarky.

[Bos'n101]

While this is true, I believe the question was in reference to the fact that these less immediate problems/issues receive media attention disproportional to their actual urgency. There are things that really can't wait any longer that aren't receiving the attention they require.

[DMCorrigan]

No, not at all. An issue is an issue and if someone feels like discussing it they should not be afraid to do so just because something mor eimportant just HAPPENS to exist. Thats ridiculous.

Aye, friend, take it easy! He didn't mean it like that at all.

[wb256]

Aye, friend, take it easy! He didn't mean it like that at all.

take it easy? I don't think he was getting too upset about it dude.

[Dick]

Less moderating... more debating!!!!

Tomtom said that we normally have more leeway here... but I think its dissapearing...

We need tom back :(

[Bos'n101]

MEH!
With that said, back to debating!

[Earlam]

I'm afraid all debate is on hold for the next 1-2 months or so.

Sorry.

[jgoguen]

Huh :confused: What's stopping those who aren't going to camp or who can get internet access at camp from continuing the debate :confused:

[Earlam]

Huh :confused: What's stopping those who aren't going to camp or who can get internet access at camp from continuing the debate :confused:

I exaggerated slightly......
Debate will of course continue. But with (I'll pull a number out of the hat) about half of the debaters gone, it'll be slow.

People at camp will have less time for CW, and I think a good chunk of the debaters are either going on staff or a senior course (meaning they're off for roughly a month).
There are those of us losers who are going on junior courses (yes, me), and those of us who aren't going to camp (not going, aged out, et cetera).
But still...... slow.

[BMaloney]

I just think that Healthcare is ALWAYS a hot topic.. I think we're just giving it a rest for other things that are really important too. It's human rights! We have to deal with things like that too.

[Theresa_MacDonald]

i know that this is really off topic but can sumone help me plz how do you make a new post or thread thingy? :confused: i'm new at this so help would be GREAT! thanks :)