The way we see people (Both the original and other discussion) [Archive]

wb256

9th April 2004, 12:50

When we're discussing international issues, (especially those concerning how the world should be run), we tend to categorize and classify people based on a variety of factors (race, ethnicity, religion, gender, sexuality, political affiliation, economic class, nationality, etc). A lot of actions are justified on the basis that they best serve a particular sector of society (or cultural, religious, ethnic, etc group). I found a quote concerning this concept to be pretty interesting, and thought I'd post it here.

"The the notion of cultural identity is, from a social point of view represents a merely doubtful, artifical concept...

...The concept of identity, when not employed on an exclusivly individual scale, is inherently reductionist and dehumanising - a collectivisit and ideological abstraction of all that is creative in the human being, of all that is not imposed by inheritance, geography or social pressue. Rather, true identity springs from the capacity of human beings to resist these influences and counter them with free acts of their own invention."

Any thoughts?

UnluckyLove

9th April 2004, 13:07

CONtroversial_subject

9th April 2004, 13:35

When I walk into a store with a crew they look at us funny too, and try and rush us out the store, but their scared to say something that might offend one of us, so they dont just kick us out. I live in a richer part of Vancouver now, and all these peoples be avoiding me at any cost. I asked this one dude for a light one time, and before I even tell him what im asking for he saying no and start walking faster. Like i didn't do nothing to him to be treated like that, its people who automatically judging by somebody's style of dress that causes all the discrimination in the first place. There wouldn't be all these violent acts by people from specific cultures if you didn't look at em like the scum of the earth.

wb256

9th April 2004, 13:54

Yeah, being judged on appearances is so ridiculous. I've heard (on a few occasions) people in my classes talking about me. Hearing comments like "why do people like that even come to university? They're just wasting everyone's time and wasting their own money", or "hehehe, I be you he's the guy that got the 28% on the last exam" is getting pretty old. Something about the long hair and old clothes...makes me look like a pothead apparently. I just honestly like long hair and need to spend money on things other than new clothing (school, bills, food, etc), so I patch a lot of old clothes rather than buying new ones. Oh well, I'm contentwith the knowledge that my marks are probably better than theirs :p

I was more posting this quote in relation to the way that a lot of people argue about the need to maintain a "Canadian identity". Are we stifling our own freedom by insisting that this identity be maintained? I can understand the want to be free to live differently than American pressures influence us to, but why not act according to logic rather than tradition? We don't have to be like Americans, but we don't need to maintain our same way of life forever, never changing obvious problems in our society.

CONtroversial_subject

9th April 2004, 14:06

there isn't no canadian image. I'm Irish/Belgian Canadian, so I got my Irish heritage, i dont know anything about the french side, but thats more my dad's fault for not wanting anything to do with his kids. People's culture is built around their surroundings though. All their values and beliefs are from life experiences. Those of us who had hard times growin up, thats gonna reflect in who we is, those who came from a rich family, you gonna tell by their personality.

Canada aint in no danger of losing its identity neither. Most my friends are Americans, and when they come up here, there's lots of differences. Like my boi Psycho was tellin me today, our cigarettes taste different, and we put those health pics on em. Dude was bout to quit right there. Thats an example tho, we aint at all the same to the states.

Insane Power Pilot

9th April 2004, 14:20

I never get any of that. It's probably because I'm such a conformist. :o

Oh, and if there is no Canadian identity, I am really screwed. That would make me a Ukrainian/Polish/British/American Canadian. Where the heck am I supposed to fit in if everyone were to identify with their ancestry? I prefer to shorten that mess to Canadian. :D

Lt(N) Jean Cyr

9th April 2004, 17:44

i hate being judged on how i look, a lot of people give me stares, like when i walk into a store the shop owner automatically thinks i'm there to cause trouble. So what i wear lots of black eyeliner? Who cares if i have short spiky hair that's really dark red? So what i wear baggy black clothes a lot of the time? That doesn't necasserily mean i'm going to be distruptive. it's like one time i went to macs milk with a few friends at 10:30 @ nite, the shop keeper kicked us out just because there were 5 teens in his store. I mean, we just wanted to buy chocolate! I know he might've had his reasons, but if we were well-dressed business execs, we wouldn't have been kicked out. It's was purely because of how we looked, because we acted just fine, we weren't disruptive, in fact, we barely talked while we were in there! I'm always judged on my appearance, like "she looks like a trouble maker! so obviously she's going to steal, get expelled from school and fail life!" No one seems to think that it's just my appearance they don't like, they think it's me!

Just my 2 cents

EC

To the store owner, your baggy clothes hold considerable merchandise should you decide to shoplift and there is little point in trying to convince him/her otherwise, when the store gets ripped off daily and loses thousands of dollars.

Remember too, that the general population fears what they don't understand. When my youngest daughter was about 4 or 5 she called a fat lady on TV "stupid". I asked her why she thought the lady was stupid (keep in mind the word isn't used in my home). She said she thought the lady was stupid because she was fat. (we had a long discussion after THAT comment I tell ya).

J

Conquistador

9th April 2004, 18:34

There are many factors that contribute to how we look at people, some are based on biology, some have their roots in the way that each civilization is brought up.

Also, one must remember that people who look "different" (unless it's some unavoidable physical feature like a limp leg, obesity, or something else) look different because they chose to look different. As such, the stereotypes (I am aware of its potential inaccuracy, if you think I am labelling you as a stereotype and don't think you fit into that stereotype, don't be offended) established in society, such as the people who dress like "goths" are trouble makers, do have some validity.

Whether or not it is correct to have these stereotypes is debatable. Like all ethical issues, there's two sides to the coin.

piper

10th April 2004, 14:19

Looking at people in a bad light because of what they wear/look like is not exactly the right thing to do, but sometimes you have to accept certain things when you dress a certain way. Wearing 'ghetto style' clothes is an obvious one, and gothic/metal stuff...what did you expect? Of course you are going to get stared at and get nervous reactions from store-owners, it is a given. Now, if it is done on basis of race, color etc, that is a different story altogether. Unnacceptable.

CONtroversial_subject

10th April 2004, 14:21

Some suit wearin white dudes steal too, so what? that aint no reason to judge an entire culture for what a couple people be doing. You right though, there is two sides. there is. on one side you got the guy running the till, gettin paid by the hour to do that job hatin on minorities, and on the other side you got the minorities gettin treated like this everywhere they go, looked down on because of the way they dress or talk or whatever, and if that aint enough.. they dirt poor too, and you wonder why some of them steal?

If you dont treat them like criminals maybe they wont become criminals.

CONtroversial_subject

10th April 2004, 14:25

Looking at people in a bad light because of what they wear/look like is not exactly the right thing to do, but sometimes you have to accept certain things when you dress a certain way. Wearing 'ghetto style' clothes is an obvious one.

ghetto style gear deserves people looking at them like criminals? where do you think most minorities live? IN THE GHETTO! If you from the hood thats how you dress, it don't mean you a criminal.

Lancaster

10th April 2004, 15:26

People Of Any Look ect ect, are the same and there for should be treated the same, if anyone disagrees then iam like :(

piper

10th April 2004, 15:29

I know many kids from poorer areas of my city who do not dress like that, simply because they cannot afford it. All those nice hip-hop clothes cost a bundle, an outfit with shoes, hat etc will run you what, like 300$? They wear what they can, the hip hop image that goes along with the clothes has been hyped up by rappers etc (now im not saying thats a bad genre of music though :p ) and does not really express what actually happens in 'the ghetto'. The bad press that is given to the people who dress like that is because of (usually middle class) kids who walk around and try to re-enact what they see in music videos etc. It has nothing to do with your social status. You dress the part so people assume you act the part too. And by the way, most minorities do not live in 'the ghetto' (at least in my city), its a whole mix. But race is becoming a big cause of violence in this city as I type...(yay me getting off topic).

CONtroversial_subject

10th April 2004, 19:43

What would you know about the hood? or for that matter about what most people do in the hood?? Hiphop is a CULTURE! This is something y'all dont seem to understand. Those rappers are just showing y'all a bit of that culture. There whole style of gear and everything, thats how they dress. When you got all the cash you can exadurate it and everything with the jewels, but that has been the main hood style of dress long before hip-hop was a big thing. Music is a reflection of life not the other way round.

Sounds like you in the berbs if everybody who sportin timbs and a rag is frontin cuz round here, this is how it is.

WHAT PEOPLE ASSUME, is cuz u represent an urban culture that you automatically gansta. Not everybody in the hood is a thug. But they all dress the same, those who be dressing like y'all from the berbs dress are the uncle toms. Sellouts trying to impress middle and upper class white folk by changing who they is. Aint nobody should have to abandon their roots to make a living. Thats why so many peoples coming up in the Entertainment Industry, so they can be real and make real money.

piper

11th April 2004, 06:33

I do know what goes on in 'the hood', I have experienced it first hand, regrettebly. My school and most of my friends are there and it is not pretty, nothing to be proud of. I know they aren't. And your roots are not dictated by what you see in a music video or on TV, it isn't the same, not even close. Your roots are from your ancestry, if you are German, or Russian, or Korean, or South African or whatever. Be proud of those roots and those cultures. Not the ones you adopt because your favorite singer does. But anyways, this is getting somewhat off topic (yes I know, my fault :rolleyes: ). As a last note, CONtroversial_subject please try to work on your...grammer. Maybye you should try to not type like you may speak, it really does get hard to read and understand sometimes. It isn't as cool as you may think to speak like that, it is actually kind of rediculous and funny. That was just some advice, no insult in it.

Back on subject however, I belive that if you dress a certain way you should expect some kickback from the general public, but what do you all think of ALL teens being branded as troublemakers thanks to steroetypes and media hype. Walking down the street with a group of young people is immediatly seen (by a pedestrian or a patrolling cop) as trouble and at least in my area you can be expect to be stopped and questioned as to where, when and why you are going. It seems as if youth everywhere, no matter of race, type of dress etc are immediatly branded as troublemakers...guilty until proven innocent.

UnluckyLove

11th April 2004, 08:08

Back on subject however, I belive that if you dress a certain way you should expect some kickback from the general public, but what do you all think of ALL teens being branded as troublemakers thanks to steroetypes and media hype. Walking down the street with a group of young people is immediatly seen (by a pedestrian or a patrolling cop) as trouble and at least in my area you can be expect to be stopped and questioned as to where, when and why you are going. It seems as if youth everywhere, no matter of race, type of dress etc are immediatly branded as troublemakers...guilty until proven innocent.

i hate that stereotype! like honestly, ask any1 who knows me, im not the one that makes trouble, im usually the one that tries to prevent it! i mean i hate people that think that just because of my age and how i dress reflects my personality. in a way it does, i dress comfortably and laid back, and im a laid back person, but just because i wear baggy clothes doesn't mean im hiding pot in my jacket or whatever. yes, i do know a lot of people that do, and i don't really socialize with them because they have pot on them all the time. im stereotyped to be like them because of my looks and age. as i said before, if i were a business exec, nobody would ever think that i was doing anything wrong. but because im a teen wearing baggy clothing they automatically assume im up to no good. I understand where everyone's coming from, but i don't like the fact that i'm stereotyped like them.

EC

wb256

11th April 2004, 08:22

[QUOTE=piper]
Back on subject however[QUOTE]

Actually, that has nothing to do with my original post. That quote isn't about being judged on what you wear, it's about viewing people as different in general. Should we differentiate between "gay" and "strait" people, or should people be free to love whoever they want without having some sort of label (with connotations of being uncharacteristically feminine/masculine). Also, and more to the effect of the discussion that I was trying to start, should we try to force a national "Canadian" identity on our population? Our government spends a large amount of money every year trying to promote Canadian "culture". However, it seems highly unlikely that everyone residing within Canada identifies with every aspect of the overall Canadian identity. Also, this identity obviously fails to represent any sort of individuality within society. Lastly, national identities (like sexual, ethnic and gender identities) are nothing more than a social imagination, a myth.

(Note: I don't mean that the difference between men and women is a myth. There are some obvious pysical differences that I'm not going to mention here. However, a female identity that likes pink colours and dolls and wants to stay home and cook/clean...is nothing more than a socially constructed dream).

So, what do you all think? Should we differentiate between people based on ethnic background, national identity, etc?

UnluckyLove

11th April 2004, 08:34

So, what do you all think? Should we differentiate between people based on ethnic background, national identity, etc?

definitely not! unless you want to be judged like that, then don't judge other people like that. it's like racism only with ethnicity etc! this one time sum1 said that i wasnt truly canadian, cos my parents r immigrants (they emigrated from england 17 years ago) and i came home crying (i was in grade 3) because i was (and still am) proud to be Canadian, and so what my parents weren't born in Canada? does that make me a bad person? i hope not! every1 is an immigrant, even if it's way far back in history! so we shouldn't be judged on where we came from, because nobody is PURELY canadian.

EC

Bright Eyes

11th April 2004, 09:14

That is an interesting quote, Warren. Where did you find it?

Trying to identify someone by their culture is a flawed system from the get go. In Canada especially we all share a common Canadian culture, but there is so much variation within it that the idea of "Canadian" culture is almost negated by it. I think the reason that we, as Canadians, don't see a unique sense of Canadian culture because we live in it and can't see the forest for the trees, so to speak. If you talked to someone that lived in a different country and then moved to Canada, then you could likely get a better idea of what they perceived Canadian culture to be and what they experienced once they got here. I can't offer insight on this, but it's food for thought.

Back to the quote, can an "identity" be applied to a population? Or by giving a large group of people a shared "identity" do we supress them? We've got two schools on this:
- People are individuals each with unique backgrounds that are not shared with anyone so they cannot be categorized.
- Even though people experience different backgrounds, their reactions to this ally them within a certain stereotype that can be identified, even if it means curtailing their individualism.

I don't think we, as a Western society, can accept the first one fully. It doesn't seem "right" or "fair" there will always be classes and certain parts of society that are marginalized, but we as a society have made it that way. That is just the way that Western society works, and whether you like it or not, that is the way it will always work. I think any person that believes one day we can triumph over this and achieve a truly egalitarian society where we can all frolic hand in hand through fields of daisies singing songs by The Mamas and the Papas will die unhappy.

This last statement I believe is true. But it brings up the whole "do we identify ourselves only by what we are not?" argument. I agree with that, but that's a whole other kettle of fish. Or is it?

CONtroversial_subject

11th April 2004, 17:42

I do know what goes on in 'the hood', I have experienced it first hand, regrettebly. My school and most of my friends are there and it is not pretty, nothing to be proud of. I know they aren't. And your roots are not dictated by what you see in a music video or on TV, it isn't the same, not even close. Your roots are from your ancestry, if you are German, or Russian, or Korean, or South African or whatever. Be proud of those roots and those cultures. Not the ones you adopt because your favorite singer does.

What projects did you experience first hand? Your ancestry? that aint where your culture comes from, YOUR INDIVIDUAL culture comes from those who raised you and what kinda enviroment you came from. Dont believe me? ask a Psychiatrist. If you grow up in a neighborhood where everybody dresses a certain way, thats how you dress. Its the same in the suberbs, y'all got your style, we got ours, and IT DONT come from no damn music video. Urban culture is a stand against the white collar beliefs that been forced on everybody. Music is one way we express that, how we dress is another. Those who happened to come up in the music industry, had those identities before hand, where you think they got em from? I'll say this one last time and hope it gets through, MUSIC IS A REFLECTION OF LIFE NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!

As a last note, CONtroversial_subject please try to work on your...grammer. Maybye you should try to not type like you may speak, it really does get hard to read and understand sometimes. It isn't as cool as you may think to speak like that, it is actually kind of rediculous and funny.

I should work on my grammer? boy u got some pair huh? I bet you wouldn't come at me like that to my face, so dont be doin it like some punk behind the forums. You think its rediculous how I talk? how should i talk then, maybe like a white collar chump? I dont think im the one that gotta worry bout my grammer.

Back on subject however, I belive that if you dress a certain way you should expect some kickback from the general public

Oh so your group of kids should be treated with respect, but these other groups you dont like should be treated like criminals.

Insane Power Pilot

11th April 2004, 18:03

I should work on my grammer? boy u got some pair huh? I bet you wouldn't come at me like that to my face, so dont be doin it like some punk behind the forums. You think its rediculous how I talk? how should i talk then, maybe like a white collar chump? I dont think im the one that gotta worry bout my grammer.

As creative as one person can be, no person is as creative as an entire society. Society can only achieve its true creative potential if ideas are shared and communicated. Communication requires norms for the sake of comprehension. Enter grammar. Of course, this doesn't apply unless you're speaking some kind of dialect with which I am not familiar.

So, what do you all think? Should we differentiate between people based on ethnic background, national identity, etc?

That is actually a really interesting question. That certainly seems to be the case. Here at U of A there are many student groups like the Muslim Students' Association, Iranian Students' Association, Hillel, Scandanavian Club, Chinese Social Club, etc. etc. These students certainly identify with others from the same nationality, even if it is to promote their specific culture's presence on campus. I don't think national identities are nothing more than a myth as you claim.

CONtroversial_subject

11th April 2004, 18:35

As creative as one person can be, no person is as creative as an entire society. Society can only achieve its true creative potential if ideas are shared and communicated. Communication requires norms for the sake of comprehension. Enter grammar. Of course, this doesn't apply unless you're speaking some kind of dialect with which I am not familiar.

Do you watch MTV or Much Music? can you understand people like Chris Rock, Martin Lawrance, Eddie Murphie, Ice Cube? They all use urban grammer? dress urban, etc. Oh and what? they all law abiding citizens too (shout out piper on that). Every culture has their own vocabulary, and accent of speach. All these white cats be claiming that they way of speaking is right though, and everybody else just talking slang, and who writes the dictionaries?

Pilot

11th April 2004, 18:45

it takes all kinds... remember in one way or another, everything is composed of different things..

BandBabe118

11th April 2004, 19:21

Remember too, that the general population fears what they don't understand. When my youngest daughter was about 4 or 5 she called a fat lady on TV "stupid". I asked her why she thought the lady was stupid (keep in mind the word isn't used in my home). She said she thought the lady was stupid because she was fat. (we had a long discussion after THAT comment I tell ya).

Jyour daughter is funny... she thinks 6 inches is the span of her arms... but I don't see why someone would think that somone else is stupid because they're fat... could somone explain this to me? forgive me for leading an extremely sheltered life but I have never (as far as I know) been treated unfairly because of the way I look.

BL

Chief Hoult

11th April 2004, 19:53

CONtroversial_subject

11th April 2004, 22:29

Kris,

I don't believe piper ever said that their group of friends should be treated better....but like anything, the way you dress, look, talk, and carry yourself, all contribute to how others will percieve you, and in effect, treat you. Is it fair? Absolutley not. But if you figure out a way to do it, let me know.

Yea, the way to do it, is to stop conforming and thats what we been doing, and its been movin ahead. More and more you seein urban culture all over the entertainment industry, not just rap, tv shows, movies, commercials. We takin it over! More and more despite what ways they want us to talk and act, more and more people are keepin it real.

By the same respect, how do you treat the 'white collar' people that you meet? Do you automatically label them because of the way they look/act?

I keep it real. If dude is chill, there aint no probs. If he disses me, then imma check him like anybody else.

What makes someone from the 'hood'?

You jokin right?

What if someone from the 'hood' talks 'proper' english (as determined by some book I'm sure is out there), and dresses in khaki's with a button down shirt. Are they part of the urban culture still? Or have they just gone out and become some 'white collar' dude?

white collar is the dictionary everything, the total conformist. Conforming is going against who u really is. So dude would be a sell out.

People face discrimination everyday, at one point, we've all faced it in one form or another. Whether it be because of the way you look, act, talk, someone, somewhere, looks down upon you.

There are classic examples everywhere....I think there was an argument a while back, and I can't remember if it was you involved in it....but it was something about homosexuality, and how hey, they deserve the treatment they get from the catholic church, and others, because they 'chose' that lifestyle, ergo, their choice, they knew the consequences. The same applies here.

First unless the police done locked you up for walkin around mindin your own business, busted up your car or beat you, you dont know what descrimination is. Secondly, dont even try to compare this to homosexuality. That aint the same thing AT ALL! Homosexuals, ppl into bestiality, all that, is a bunch of people who somehow didn't fit in trying to be something else. None of that is natural, we was DESIGNED to have intercourse with the opposite sex not same sex or other species. We were not designed to conform to some white collar lifestyle.

As for the grammar, I think it's just courtesy on here. We are all educated through our respective education systems, therefore we all have been taught to write and present ourselves in a way that is most understandable to the general public. Assuming we all went through the education system to some extent, we are able to understand eachother because of this standard. When I'm trying to read this 'dialect' of english, it might make your ideas come across unclearly to those unfamiliar with the grammatical structure of the language, and therefore makes a debate more difficult, as we cannot always understand the points you're trying to make.

Yea I can act like a white collar person, so can alotta people. But the point is not having to do that in order to make something outta yourself. I know im bein clear, i gotsa decrypt what you sayin too. But i figure it out.

smiley_sweet_heart

11th April 2004, 22:32

Simply put, isn't or shouldn't what you wear be a reflection or a means of self expression?? and if it is then is it not then fair to say that by wearing any types of clothing your expressing yourself to a world that does not know you and that they are simply judging you on what information/or on what you put out to them.

smiley_sweet_heart

11th April 2004, 22:35

[white collar is the dictionary everything, the total conformist. Conforming is going against who u really is. So dude would be a sell out.[/QUOTE]

Isn't white collar, a description of the type of job that you do ie. white collar=buisness man/woman & blue collar = trades man/woman???

Sgt_McWatt

11th April 2004, 22:49

Ok guy seriously,
Clearly you aren’t actually from a ghetto. I know a few people who talk like that. But they still can speak english. They don’t try and convey speaking like that in they’re typing because they know no one would have a clue what there saying. So seriously why don’t you stop commenting on thing you have no clue about such as white-collar people because your definition isn’t even close. Than grow up and mature out of this Slim shady, eminem phase your going through.
Ok home slice???

Insane Power Pilot

11th April 2004, 23:03

Do you watch MTV or Much Music? can you understand people like Chris Rock, Martin Lawrance, Eddie Murphie, Ice Cube? They all use urban grammer?

Yes, I can, because "ebonics" is more of a vernacular...it was meant to be spoken. I believe Sgt_McWatt touched on this.

white collar is the dictionary everything, the total conformist. Conforming is going against who u really is. So dude would be a sell out.

I'm not sure I understand. Suppose I started speaking in "urban grammar." That is not the kind of person I am...would I then not be "keeping it real?" Because then I would just be conforming to something else.

First unless the police done locked you up for walkin around mindin your own business, busted up your car or beat you, you dont know what descrimination is.

What kind of discrimination exactly? Are we talking racial? Class? Sex? Religious?

But the point is not having to do that in order to make something outta yourself.

EXACTLY. That's how you make it in this world...by being yourself. If you can be comfortable with that, you'll have a lot of confidence, and that's what employers look for.

wb256

11th April 2004, 23:46

So anyays, I got to thinking. The discussion that Brandy and I were having (the one that didn't have anything to do with ebonics, how we dress, or whatever) seems to relate to Native American groups as well. Are we stifling them by treating them differently? Even if an egalitarian utopia is impossible, shouldn't we make an attempt to move towards those ends rather than repeating the same mistakes that nationalism and racism have caused?

Insane Power Pilot

12th April 2004, 00:19

Are we stifling them by treating them differently? Even if an egalitarian utopia is impossible, shouldn't we make an attempt to move towards those ends rather than repeating the same mistakes that nationalism and racism have caused?

Yes. And the way to do this is to cut off the treaty cheques. Of course, if I were Prime Minister, I'd end it over several years. It's the kind of nice guy I am. Those are also my feelings on affirmative action; that when you give any group any kind of special treatment, they can never be fully integrated into society.

S Urbanoski

12th April 2004, 03:07

I'm going to ask that you all speak properly in this thread. Not to be disrespectful towards whatever point it IS that you are trying to get across, simply the fact that you're not getting there. Try another tactic.

BMaloney

12th April 2004, 06:16

If you complain about how shop owners give you wierd looks because you wear baggy clothes and whatnot, you're ignoring the fact that there are some REALLY stupid kids out there that wear the same pants you do and steal from those stores. I think that complaining about looks you get is a bit naive in that although you may be a little angel, it doesn't ignore the fact that others aren't. I have even got these looks from owners as well but if I KNOW that I'm not going there to steal something, there's no need for me to feel uncomfortable.

PS: Also, in the act of not conforming by using different terms in speech, you're conforming to the entirely new principle of 'urban grammar'. Think about it!

Bright Eyes

12th April 2004, 07:18

This thread was misinterpreted and derailed. It is not about the way that you dress and urban grammar.
Go start another thread if you want to talk about that.

The only thing that I am going to say about this whole "clothing" thing. If anyone has seen a picture of me, you know I'm a square. :D We were on a cadet trip to a parade over the summer and went to the mall. Now, there's 50 of us running around this mall with uniform boots and pants and with PT shirts on that say cadets on the back. Me and 3 others walk into this store, West 49 (dunno if you heard of it), and the clerk runs up and asks us to check our backpacks at the counter and retrieve them when we leave. So, don't act like it's your clothes that is making you a threat to the store clerks ... it's the fact that you're a teenager. Get used to it. It'll go away in 10 or so years.

Back to the real thread topic.

Of course it relates to natives. That is a prime example of a group that had a distinct identity, that was tried to be integrated to "normal" society, and that is still suffering because of it. I don't think we are stifling them by treating them differently. I think it caused more trouble when we tried to treat them the same as everyone else. I'll bring up the whole residential schools idea that, if you know anything about them, was absolutely devastating and still affects native communities.

I think my opinions about natives are very biased because not only is a reserve right down the road from me, I'm a member of the native council of PEI. My mother is being trained right now to become a spirit woman. So ... I guess I see the whole "native issue" from a different side than most people do here. Mostly I try to keep a relatively even temperance on issues, but I just can't for this one. I'll have to put some more thought into it, but don't count me out.

wb256

12th April 2004, 08:07

Native issues hit pretty close to home for me as well. If anyone here has ever visited Red Lake ontario, you'd understand why. A good majority of the area there is a ghetto, with a HUGE homeless population (yes, one of the furthest north towns with road access in ontario hasa LOT of homeless people).

Given our high native population, our school system involved teaching a lot of native american history, teaching a lot about current issues, and teaching a lot about native amerian culture (and a lot of Inuit culture/history as well).

But anyways, back to the main topic. By sending native children to reserve schools, they were still treating them differently (which is obvious through the high amounts of racism at the time). I realize that we should make allowances for native americans to still practice their culture, but in exchange for this they've been forced into the fringes of society, and many of their communities are plagued with alcoholism. (especially in my area anyways).

I can't help but think that maybe there would be a better way. However, at the same time the example of the Roma (commonly incorrectly referred to as Gypsies) comes to mind. By not treating them differently, the European nations are causing havoc within the Roma community. Little land is left for The Roma to temporarily camp on, so they're forced to either peddle their wares elsewhere or inhabit old abandoned industrial lots.

Anyways, I'm not suggesting that I know the answers to anything that I'm asking here. This is a really complex issue, and I couldn't possibly be bold enough to claim I know the correct answer.

CONtroversial_subject

12th April 2004, 13:05

Responding to last comments...

Ok guy seriously,
Clearly you aren’t actually from a ghetto.

I aint from where? how about we meet up at Daddio's or the Drink, downtown Vancouver. You can get a quick reality check in not saying things that you don't know, and peoples do type how they talk. Why? cuz thats the words that came to your head first. Its an adaption to change someones grammer to something it isn't just to write something. Another reality check, pick up a copy of XXL magazine, and read an article. Thats a published document, now tell me what kinda grammer they got goin on.

What kind of discrimination exactly? Are we talking racial? Class? Sex? Religious?

What in my case? culture and racial descrimination.

On the original topic...

In order for anything to happen bout the native americans to better anything they gonna have to tear down the double standards. Every step they've made so far has only made things worse, like giving favoritism to minorities in hiring. That aint what any of us were asking for, that just encourages more reasons for racism. This dude got hired even though im more qualified just cuz he's black.. now white boy hates blacks. The system needs to really look at this again, cuz the way they goin aint working.

Bright Eyes

12th April 2004, 14:31

By treating Natives differently problems have been created in their society like depression and alcoholism. By treating Roma the same problems have been created in their society like forcing them to give up their entire way of life. (This was also a problem with the nomadic nations in the Prairies.) Damned if you do and damned if you don't, it seems.

So ... it seems that we've concluded that there are groups within society that need special treatment because they are different. Do all special interest groups need this ... or are some more important than others?

And ... with that ... we're at the exact same place that we were at the beginning of this thread. :D

Insane Power Pilot

12th April 2004, 14:44

So ... it seems that we've concluded that there are groups within society that need special treatment because they are different. Do all special interest groups need this ... or are some more important than others?

I don't think we've concluded that... :confused:

Bright Eyes

12th April 2004, 14:52

I don't think we've concluded that... :confused:
Well, I have. Can't you follow my leaps of logic? :rolleyes: And you call yourself an academic ...

Perhaps we have just concluded that you can't please all of the people all of the time.

Insane Power Pilot

12th April 2004, 14:54

Perhaps we have just concluded that you can't please all of the people all of the time.

That's much better! ;)

Chief Hoult

12th April 2004, 19:01

Just so we're not interfering with the discussion going on in their, I'm just continuing it here if anyone is interested.

Kris, question:

What in my case? culture and racial descrimination.

I can understand culture, perhaps. But could you please explain how you suffer racial discrimination?

CH

CONtroversial_subject

13th April 2004, 14:39

I'm part italian, part irish. The police dont like my family history too much.

Insane Power Pilot

13th April 2004, 14:55

How can they tell?

Wood

13th April 2004, 15:49

Well maybe slight veering from your focus, everyone these days faces racism, no matter what colour you are. 'Brown' people were probably one of the few people who people are not afraid to state their predjudices against pre-sept 11th and now they have the excuse to turn that predjudice into discrimination. White people face discrimination because of their past oppression inflicted on others, and the preception that they are either rich, promiscuous single mothers, or lazy trailer trash (in anycase undeserving of much help). This image is made worse by the idiots who still think its the 1940s. Black people still face racism, I'm sure most of us have seen it, its probably made worse because they can't forget that they have been discriminted against in the past. Aboriginals have never actually reached equal footing with the rest of Canada. They are alienated by justice system and government at large. Possibly made worse by their strong resistance to normal relations with the government.

Culturally, you can go further than that, french and english Canadians for a starter.

Bright Eyes

13th April 2004, 16:03

How can they tell?
By the looks, of course! Everyone knows that the dirty Italians and drunken Irish are genetically different from the rest of society, making them predisposed to commit crimes. :rolleyes:

I say, forced sterilization for all minority groups{!} Keep our streets clean{!}

...........

Oh man! I got got butterscotch pudding all over my white hood! My Mom is gonna burn me on the cross!! :eek:

Disclaimer: Not all opinions reflected above are actually held by me.

CONtroversial_subject

13th April 2004, 16:27

Black people still face racism, I'm sure most of us have seen it, its probably made worse because they can't forget that they have been discriminted against in the past.

Yea if only the cops could stop beating up the italians, irish, blacks, spanish etc. maybe they would forget about the descrimination.

Wood

13th April 2004, 16:31

Yea if only the cops could stop beating up the italians, irish, blacks, spanish etc. maybe they would forget about the descrimination.

Probably, however the viscious circle defense really doesn't work either. Black people are often more abrasive simply because they feel discrimated against.

Also I was specifically refering to social discrimination and not judicial or police profiling.

piper

13th April 2004, 16:39

Im pretty sure the police dont stop you and ask...'are you Italian or Irish'? and if you say yes start beating you. You obviously cannot be discriminated against because you are Irish, that would mean the police are discriminating against anyone with white skin, unless you have red hair and the cop REALLY hates anything remotely Irish.

I think racism by the police is not as common as you may think. Many cases of it can be tracked down to the person in question calling race into the issue so he or she can be let off. And that is a VERY true statement. Police are not dumb enough to beat up someone because of race, even if they wanted to. The backlash would be so great in our oh so sensitive society that it would not be worth the risk.

But racism still exists. Especially in my city as of late. And it is all because of your identity. The race problems in my city are linked back either to Somalians, Afghans or SKinheads, depending on your point of view. Notice it is all by racially polarised groups? I have been dragged down into this sadly, and want to know why? Because I have a shaved head and I am therefore immediatly identified as a skinhead (which I am not). What you look like can be the biggest factor in racism, if you look like a Somalian to someone who hates Somalians for some reason, it dosent matter if you are or not you are still going to get beat up, or whatever.

CONtroversial_subject

13th April 2004, 16:40

oh i get it.. you talkin like why black people gotta treat you like you the enemy or something right? well maybe you a good kid but alotta white people be treatin them like garbage, I see it every day cuz all my friends are black. People wont answer you when you talkin to them, crossin the street whenever they see you, or occassionally we run into those cocky little white boys who got something to say about how the minorities are the reason for the problem, and the WHITE MAN is really the victum here. Its those cocky little kids who are the reason for most of this racial violence outside of police brutality.

grass_roots

13th April 2004, 16:46

Wood

13th April 2004, 16:47

oh i get it.. you talkin like why black people gotta treat you like you the enemy or something right?

Cough! note I didn't state what my own racial background was. I used "they" when refering to all of them. Don't assume.

Tomtom

14th April 2004, 08:19

Lets stay away from the personal attacks and insults.

If you can't discuss matters like the mature young adults (and in some cases adults) you are... stay out of International Issues.

lord_rupert

14th April 2004, 14:29

Just to add to the debate. I am fed up of people seeing me and not bothering to look further before they make their judgements about me being a posh boy. I happen to be a regular guy, but for many the moment I open my mouth the accent marks me out as somebody different.
The same goes for the clothes when I ride out as a hunt staff - people fail to see further than my red coat and breeches.
That make me depressed.
Take a friend from Uni - she saw some photos on my bookcase - she was flicking through them and seeing a picture of George on his horse, wearing hunting kit - she automatically said - 'He's posh' - she had never met him and was going on the basis of the fact that he was wearing a scarlet coat and riding a horse. In fact he is the nicest guy you could ever meet, always willing to give a hand to anybody.

That sort of prejudice angers me - it angers me that people stereotype - be it on class, sexuality, gender, age, race or anything.

ROO :mad:

piper

14th April 2004, 18:44

Its a sad fact of life, but stereotypes are present everywhere and about everyone. Even when you make a simple blonde joke, thats still stereotyping in a way. It will always be around and theres not much that can be done about it. Too bad.

CONtroversial_subject

14th April 2004, 19:38

Ya, I'm sorry, but I call your bluff, I don't think Irish/Itallian discrimination is on the top of the list for Vancouver police(and I must in brackets note the fact that Vancouver police are perhaps the most liberal open minded I've heard of)

heard of? try dealing with them.. liberal definately doesn't come to mind. Yes, in Vancouver the police generally dont care about some minor offenses like marijuana possession, however anytime they see a group of tattooed guys with roca wear jeans and throwback jerseys they show their trigger happy true selves. Police got a tough job, i aint knocking that but they gotta stop making generalizations ESPECIALLY in clothing relating specific styles to that of a criminal. A criminal doesn't dress any particular way, they dress by their background whatever that happens to be, it has nothing to do with whether they are a criminal or not.

CONtroversial_subject

14th April 2004, 19:40

Well, I have. Can't you follow my leaps of logic? :rolleyes: And you call yourself an academic ...

Perhaps we have just concluded that you can't please all of the people all of the time.

It has nothing to do with pleasing them, it has to do with treating everybody with equality despite their differences. Special Treatment wasn't ever the answer, equal treatment IS the answer.

Lil Lightnin

14th April 2004, 19:58

This is a very interesting thread. Mr. Letain has raised several intriguing contentions as well, some of which I'd like to address.
Unforunately, my post has to start with a question, which I'd like to base some of my further posts on.
But I'd like to start by posing a question -

Can you please provide some examples of this conformist white collar society that you're reffering to?

This might be kind of difficult for me to grasp initially because for virtually my whole life I've lived in very white neighbourhoods. And I see the definite distinct style that people of other races (origins/cultures/etc) tend to portray. I'll continue to refer to racial differences however, as this is how I am interpretting this debate. Although I live in the caucasian capital of Canada (:p) I live very close to Edmonton, which in comparison to where I live, offers a vast amount of ethnic diversity, which I think for the most part, is great. But I'm having a hard time seeing where you're being forced into adopting this "white culture". Quite the opposite actually. Last weekend, I was in West Edmonton mall trying to find a pair of shoes. I spent the better part of an hour looking for some that wouldn't make me appear as though I was trying to be a member of G-Unit. It doesn't frustrate me, but I'm well aware that this type of "urban" culture is extremely popular. I cannot accept, however, how this is a way to escape a conformist movement, as I see these shoes, clothes, music, etc. in every second store window, just as much, if not more than anything "white" related.
Take a look at Much Vibe for instance. Urban music for the people that want to escape from the white washed pop culture scene? Most likely. Marketing tool designed to make as many profits as possible? You better believe it. Whether or not it was initially intended to, or whether or not you accept the fact, I believe that Urban culture is just as much of a marketing tool as Brittany Spears is, and that the goal behind those is to make as much money as possible.

You don't drive an Escalade with 22s simply on the grounds that people like your music. You're making money off it, and a lot. When I see these people in their massive mansions with 15 Bentley's and a Leopard skin everythings and bling galore who are, as you said, "keepin it real", it makes me wonder sometimes when these individuals will recieve their REALITY check.

Keep it nice.

Lil Lightnin

14th April 2004, 20:30

Fair enough...but to play the devil's adovacate for a minute.
Wouldn't you agree, that to a certain extent , Police continue to make these generalizations about people who dress and act in specific ways because for the most part, these stereotypes usually prove correct? And if this is correct, then the more time spent as a police officer, the more generalizations are made. Whether or not this is an effective policing method can be debated, regardless if it is discrimatory and morally wrong.

Bright Eyes

14th April 2004, 20:35

It has nothing to do with pleasing them, it has to do with treating everybody with equality despite their differences.
So, how should we start this equal treatment? With a standarized education system nation wide ... so that every time the prime minister looks at his watch he can know what the children of the nation are studying? National standards in diet would sure lessen the burden on the health care system. And spiffy grey warmups would remove all the problems that seem to happen when people dress from their culture. Disassemble all the Chinatowns and Little Italys and create a diaspora of all ethnic minorities amongst the suburbs!

Gee your right. Society is a lot better without any special treatment.

it makes me wonder sometimes when these individuals will recieve their REALITY check.
I'd like a reality check. Paid to Brandy Lee Mac Lean ... 1 reality. No returns or exchanges. :)

wb256

15th April 2004, 08:37

It has nothing to do with pleasing them, it has to do with treating everybody with equality despite their differences. Special Treatment wasn't ever the answer, equal treatment IS the answer.

I have to disagree in some situations. A good example that I've already mentioned involves Gypsies. Without gaining special treatment, they'll be doomed to poverty for a long time.

By treating everyone the same, in a way you're also forcing conformity on them. You greatly reduce the amount of cultural expression available to people by not making special allowances for some groups to continue their culture, and by not protecting certain groups from persecution specifically. Also, special allowances need to be made to allow some groups to stay alive in the areas they inhabit.

Take the Inuit for example. If they weren't permitted to hunt more than the average citizen, they would likely starve (it costs SO much to ship food up there). I suppose they COULD move south, but why should they have to? They've been living there for far longer than the majority of Canadians have been living in Canada - why should we force them to move?

CONtroversial_subject

16th April 2004, 11:56

Im not going to argue that there are people who wear urban clothing that are criminals, but believe it or not, a majority of the people aren't. Alot of em work steady jobs, alot are in colleges (our peoples are usually on basketball or football scholarships, imma keep it real) and then there is a percent in the entertainment industry. Now in all those pieces of the pie, we seem to got a piece for criminals too, but hold up for a minute and lets look at all the other groups that got criminals. Should they assume that everybody driving a motorcycle is a criminal? everybody who wears punk or goth clothing is a criminal? everybody basically that doesn't dress prep is a criminal?

So no, I can't see where the police are coming from because I been on the other end gettin beat down by them, so you can't tell me to agree that just cuz they see some kids in hiphop clothing trying to pull some nickel and dime hustles that they should be able to beat on everybody with baggy pants and a du-rag, and guess what ALL the REAL criminals, im talking bout the ones making that Tony Montana/Al Capone type money, they wear suits and ties and are generally white. So they wanna make some generalizations based on what a few who dress the same do, lets have em switch it up and beat on everybody in a suit. Maybe then you'll see whats really up..

Insane Power Pilot

16th April 2004, 12:16

and guess what ALL the REAL criminals, im talking bout the ones making that Tony Montana/Al Capone type money, they wear suits and ties and are generally white. So they wanna make some generalizations based on what a few who dress the same do, lets have em switch it up and beat on everybody in a suit. Maybe then you'll see whats really up..

They also pay off the cops. It has nothing to do with colour or dress.

CONtroversial_subject

16th April 2004, 12:35

I see where you coming from with the inuit thing, that wasn't what I was really driving at though. As far as the gypsies go, i'll talk to you sometime bout that, cuz if you think they deserve special treatment your game aint where I thought it was.

Bright eyes, your points aint made no sense to me for a while, so dont be mad if I stop responding to them.

Lil Lightning, first off so u dont get hiphop twisted with punk culture, we aint trying to rebel against conformity in general, we're about bringin it in every way that goes against white collar society. Everything about our speech, how we dress, how we walk, everything is against that white collar society. The reason you seeing hiphop culture everywhere you look, cuz we finally gettin the word out through the entertainment industry. Despite what anybody on here or anywhere thinks of it, I could care less, cuz as Lil Lightnin here said, everywhere you go you seein us. We're bringing flavor to that dull textbook white collar society.

And for the money, if you was trying to make a point about that I missed it, this is a capitalist world, so what everybody thinkin bout? gettin paid. All those cruisin in a Caddilac with 22's is a POSITIVE message that you can have the american dream and still keep it real without breakin the law. Everybody be talkin bout how there is alot of urban youth thats criminals, well if the world stopped judging them by their clothes or how they talked, quit telling them that you can't represent, you gotta confrom to white collar society, you gotta dress this way, you gotta talk like this, you gotta be everything that you aint, which IS what you gotta do to get a job most anywhere, then there would be less criminals. Now this might be a lil hard to understand if you grew up with all white collar society, where that is keepin it real to you, but imagine this then..

Everywhere you go to an interview you can't get a job unless you sport urban gear, not only that but sport it a certain way, talk street, and have tattoos and piercings. You think that would be right? that you gotta change everything about yourself just to get and keep a job.

In short, hiphop culture is spreadin the word for everybody to just KEEP IT REAL! dont pretend to be anything but what you are, and dont change yourself for nobody, u dont need everybody in that office to have the same dress code, or have the same flavor to get the job done, and you know what dont even argue that point cuz we provin it RIGHT NOW! We makin history up in here, just turn on the radio, t.v., rent a movie, go to the mall, concert, clubs, pick up a magazine and we there. Perfect example y'all prolly know about is Sean "P. Diddy" Combs. Dude obviously keepin it real, yet he also managing about 20 different groups of artists right now, he OWNS Sean Jean clothing, the most successful hiphop clothing line right now, dude played in a bunch of movies, you see him guest star on almost every t.v. show that has a black cast, see him on talk shows all the time, and this aint all games or nothing. It takes alot of skill to manage a company let alone that and more than 20 artists' careers plus star in movies, do music videos, work on your own album, guest star constantly on t.v. shows, and do talk shows, go on tour, like the list goes on. That skill he got though, aint got nothing to do with his personality or none of that, he aint white collar, he aint talk or dress white collar but he still successful. Thats the whole message him and every other rapper in the game is trying to make, you can be yourself and still be good at your job.

Aight I didn't really keep that short, but I hope y'all got a lil insight into what i been trying to say.

piper

16th April 2004, 12:52

You try to be an individual by being 'urban', but when you do you conform to the world's fastest growing and most popular 'culture'. That doesn't sound like being very individual to me, you see one 'gangsta' you've seen them all. Same with being 'punk', you see one you see them all. Not bashing these styles, but its not being individual as much as you may want to believe it does. And I still do not get this white collar junk thats being thrown around, its not a bad thing at all, you work a good job, have a nice hours, a car or two, and enough money to live comfortably on, I think thats 'keepin it real' more then conforming to some neat style. Same goes for blue collar workers, they keep it real more then the rap stars, or most celebrities for that matter.

Tomtom

17th April 2004, 08:43

Aight I didn't really keep that short, but I hope y'all got a lil insight into what i been trying to say.

An excellent read.

Lil Lightnin

17th April 2004, 18:14

We're bringing flavor to that dull textbook white collar society

I understand what you're saying in a way...and on the other hand, I'm having a hard time with something here.
If I get 'white collar society' here as were everyone dresses properly, in suits and ties, with completely proper english, and acts in a certain way. Someone tell me if that's wrong.
Anyways, I'll try to use cadets as an example here, since most can relate. I'm seeing this society as you refer to it, as a way present themselves, rather than a lifestyle. There's a time and a place for people to talk without using slang, and to dress properly. When you're at staff, you want to present yourself as professional. Everyone does, regardless of how they prefer to present themselves in civilian attire. I wouldn't call any of the cadets, buddy, or guy or anything. But I have no problem saying that to my friends after the day is over. I don't wear collared shirts with startched pants every day to school. I don't speak dictionary, far from it. And I'm white as snow. :p
And despite being different from the 'punk' movement, it seems quite similar in that you portray a group of people as being undesirable. To me, hip hop seems just as much a culture, as skaters, punks, goths, etc are. No different. Infact, you guys just might be more commercialized than any of the other groups.

Just a thought.

CONtroversial_subject

17th April 2004, 18:34

see you just proved my point. There is a time when you "fake" a personality other than your own, dress a way you usually dont dress etc. in order to keep your job. THAT is what we are against, thats the whole point. Cadets is a perfect example. It took me a long time to realize how retarded the whole concept was. To do everything a certain way, to act, to respond the same way. Uniformity/Proffesionalism, whatever they want to call it, its brainwashing, a means of having complete control over anothers way of being, and it serves no purpose other than shelters people from REALITY!

You keep bringing up the commercialism, and I dont understand why. Is that supposed to be seen as some sort of bad thing... if so, ur confusing it with punks who are the ones dressing against capitalism. HipHop culture is all about getting paid while keeping it real. No bull****, this is what I am, but that aint got **** to do with the job. Like if you work in an office, how does wearing a business suit make you any better at the job? the guy with the lakers jersey and phat farm jeans sporting a few tattoos probably got way more game than the cat in the suit, and when it come down, game is gonna sell more than booksmarts.

CONtroversial_subject

17th April 2004, 18:37

you watch too many movies, it has alot to do with color and dress. Why you think there aint no real heat on the HA no more? they dont look like bikers they wear suits and look like they are some executive at a fortune 500 company.

Lil Lightnin

17th April 2004, 19:04

To do everything a certain way, to act, to respond the same way. Uniformity/Proffesionalism, whatever they want to call it, its brainwashing, a means of having complete control over anothers way of being.

Fair enough...but when you see an ad on TV, or go to a store looking for clothing, are you not buying into something in a "certain way". You won't wear a suit but you will wear a lakers jersey? If you look around at your friends, are you not relatively uniform in what you're all wearing? It doesn't have to be the same idea, but the same style is there. What differs in the marketing scheme used by people promoting hip hop clothing compared to those who sell dress clothing? I bet if I gave you a pair of DCs and a Ride hoodie and made you wear it around your friends, they'd think something was up with you for sure. Why? Because you're expected to wear a certain type of clothing. Is that not the same?

Lance

17th April 2004, 22:10

Fair enough...but when you see an ad on TV, or go to a store looking for clothing, are you not buying into something in a "certain way". You won't wear a suit but you will wear a lakers jersey? If you look around at your friends, are you not relatively uniform in what you're all wearing? It doesn't have to be the same idea, but the same style is there. What differs in the marketing scheme used by people promoting hip hop clothing compared to those who sell dress clothing? I bet if I gave you a pair of DCs and a Ride hoodie and made you wear it around your friends, they'd think something was up with you for sure. Why? Because you're expected to wear a certain type of clothing. Is that not the same?

Nah, see this is where I step in guy. Theres a lot of differences from some big Armani suit and a pimpin doggfather suit or lakers jersey. I gotta shout to Kris on this one, cause hes got this whole concept on lock!

That bein said, in hip hop, theres a whole lotta other subcultures. Like pimpin, ballin, thuggin, hustlin etc. And they all got they different styles of dress too. If guy is big pimpin, he prolly gonna roll up in a boooommmmbbbb suit with tonnes of ice , if guy is ballin, he gonna sport a jersey 'n all the stuff that goes wit it. But whats the deal in the office? If I go to work in an Enyce shirt with baggy ecko jeans sittin right low what makes me any worse at the job than guy in tha next cubicle over sportin a suit he jus' dropped 10 large on? nothin. I got an education, I got style, class, suave, all of it, I jus call it game, while the other dude spells it all out.

Everyone chooses to look and act different, and Kris was right when he said it all depends on lifestyle, where, when and how ya grew up. Like, where I grew up, I had to hold it down and look out for mine. Thats part of what makes me. I aint always spit slang, but I still hold it down. I aint a punk who back down from tough times, an I aint a thug who step up if guy scuffs my air forces neither. Its jus how I came up in the world.

As for buyin into somethin when I go copp that Sean John sweater, Im not buyin into anything, Im supporting my culture. Im puttin money into it. Im helpin otha dudes who keepin it real, keep it real, live the dream legally. I aint proud of some of the stuff I done in my past, but Im legit, and I live my dream everyday, I keep it real.

Insane Power Pilot

17th April 2004, 22:55

Like if you work in an office, how does wearing a business suit make you any better at the job? the guy with the lakers jersey and phat farm jeans sporting a few tattoos probably got way more game than the cat in the suit, and when it come down, game is gonna sell more than booksmarts.

I'm going to disagree on you there...many people (I'm one of them) feel smarter, more professional and more confident when they are wearing a business suit. Believe me, I see math majors and some business students going into their final exam wearing a shirt and tie and looking sharp while everyone else is wearing sweat pants and a hat because they didn't have time to wash their hair in the morning. I don't know for sure who does better on exams, but I have an idea.

piper

18th April 2004, 09:50

piper

18th April 2004, 10:01

wb256

18th April 2004, 11:13

A great, another one 'keeping it real' via the internet *rolls eyes*. And I must step in again, cadets isn't about brainwashing, it is about discipline. Wearing a uniform, doing as you are ordered etc is not a bad thing, it instills some discipline in people, which is badly needed these days, I used to be a retarded little kid to once, then..gasp..I grew up. And cadets does not shelter you from reality at all, it can actually prepare you for the rest of yuor life because unless you are the CEO of a major company you will be taking orders from other people at your job and you WILL HAVE TO do what they say. Thats reality, not going out clubbing and parting all day and night with you older brother's fake ID (in moderation its all good), remember, got to have the job to make the money to party, and that involves taking orders. Don't fool yourself, you aren't looking professional in your jeans down past your knees and your **** down to your ankles, thats just the way it is. One day when these kids grow up you might understand (I look back at pics of me in grade 9 and 10 in my baggy ar** pants and guess what I do...I laugh).

Side note, ebonics is a spoken form of communication rather then written.

Great, another kid telling us that we need to hurry up and conform. I don't think there's any attempt to look professional while wearing hip-hop clothing, just like I'm not trying to look professional with my day to day clothing.

Just as a side note, the image that I have is the furthest thing from hip hop. I, however, dress much like the people I grew up with dressed. I'm from a small northern mining community, full of lots of homeless people and working class "skids". My clothing's old and torn, but where I was raised, people didn't care much about that. I'm getting through life fine (doing my undergrad degree, looking towards a master's in a few years), despite the fact that numerous people make stupid comments about how people like me are "just wasting everyone's time".

Anyways, my point is that there's a difference between a suburban kid donning hip hop clothing, and an urban kid doing the same. There's different reasons for it, and unless you're the latter, you can't fully understand it. Wearing baggy pants comes as natural to them, as wearing bandannas and having long hair does to me, which is the same motivation behind a suburban kid wearing khakis.

BTW, reality is subjective, not objective. Don't tell me what's real and what isn't. Just because something isn't culturally signifigant to you dosn't mean it isn't to someone else. This example can go much further than modern pop-culture. Almost every cultural group has places and activities that they consider important (sometimes even sacred) which other groups find pointless, silly or immoral/disgusting. I have to get going so I don't have time to list off a ton of examples (but trust me, I could go on for HOURS), but a good example involves the way European explorers viewed new peoples they encountered. The practice of cannibalism in particular was viewed as disgusting and immoral by the Europeans, while indigenous peoples viewed it as an important ritual. Also falling into the same category was the lack of clothing most indigenous people wore.

Last of all, individualism NEVER comes from what you wear (which is what you implied hiphop kids and punks were trying to accomplish through their dress). Individualism comes from inside, the clothing is just what these cultures choose to sport.

Try to be a little less condescending to others, just because they don't talk the same way as you or hold the same world view as your own. Just because your world view is more common, why does that make it any more valid than mine? For hundreads of years the moral perspective that Christianity teaches was the minority, however it's in the majority now.

wb256

18th April 2004, 11:19

Maybye you should take a trip out east to eastern Ontario and better yet, Quebec, the Hells Angels are still out and about and they are still quite in the police's eye, you just don't hear about it because the media dosen't see it to be newsworthy anymore, terrorists and whatnot make better headlines. They sre still there and still dangerous, but admittedly they have had a good whipping by the police lately, lots of arrests and all that.

The cops have eased up on the Angels in ontario a lot. Yes, they're still there, but the cops dosn't harass them half as much as they used to. Like Kris said, it's tough to spot most of them now. Anyone who's high up in that club throws out their slayer t-shirt and chaps for a nice suit. When you're dealing with pounds of coke, I'd imagine you wouldn't want to be profiled by the cops.

wb256

18th April 2004, 11:24

Also, to anyone who implied that racial profiling no longer exists with police officers, try coming up to my home town and watch the way they treat native americans. They're WAY more likely to harass a native kid, and WAY more likely to use excessive force (Some of my friends have gotten beaten really bad for no reason).

piper

18th April 2004, 12:16

CONtroversial_subject

18th April 2004, 19:12

I didn't say my view on life/culture/speaking properly etc was better. And while it may have been percieved, my post was not meant to be condescending. I simply find that the way many people 'live' the urban culture is utterly rediculous (some of the music is good, and some of the clothes are ok). Maybye thats just how I see things because of what I see here where I live, but I have to admit that maybye I'm biased since there seems to be a new style everyday and it keeps getting funnier and funnier (this goes for every youth 'culture', not just urban, I'm not bashing it alone).I just like to express my views and if you don't like it...I like to argue even more :D .

YOUTH culture? what the hell is a youth culture? You think this is some kid's games or something. Not trying to be condescending? you are outwardly insulting an entire culture. Just cuz you got born with the silver spoon dont mean everybody else gotta hear bout how your spoiled way is right, and meanwhile we the rediculous ones. I dont know what they do in your neighborhood, but in mine my kind of peoples wouldn't be too happy about what you gotta say. Talkin bout keeping it real on the net, how bout you do yourself a favor and not say anything that you wouldn't have the balls to say to their face.

CONtroversial_subject

18th April 2004, 19:21

Lots of busts? you are feeding bull**** to the wrong person. Name one full patch that got busted this year?!!! Here's a hint, it'd be out west that u'd find a name.

Feel free to holla back at me soon as you pick up a lil more street cred.

Earlam

18th April 2004, 19:34

Kris, I don't know how you can, in good concience, post this stuff.

You've made a couple of good points, but for the most part, you're just being argumentative (yeah, by posting this I'm a hypocrite. Strangely, I don't care).

So if someone (assume he's black, it makes the argument easier if we're classifying by race at the moment) grows up in an urban neighbourhood, he has to adopt urban culture. Otherwise, he's a sellout. You have expressed this opinion.
I think this is one of the poorest arguments I've ever heard (that I could understand, as some are unintelligible).
Let me take it up a notch in scale.
The poor-black-ghetto demographic has been born into a nation of Whitey. The dominant culture is White (notice the capital letters. White here isn't a race, it's a culture-block).
If the entire poor-black-ghetto culture doesn't conform to the culture it was born into, it's a sellout. This is your own line of reasoning, scaled up (ever so slightly). My argument here is completely invalid, I'm sure you'll agree.
Yet it seems to be the same argument you've made..... give it some thought.

In the past you've called Colin Powell a sellout (he speaks with American-English grammar, wears a suit, and holds rather conservative views).
So, if I'm to understand this correctly:
A black man born in a ghetto must conform to ghetto culture. If he chooses his own culture, he is a sellout. A contemptable traitor.

Say I'm to go with this.
The only minority-ghetto people who can succeed without becoming slime are:
a) rap artists
b) sports stars
So if you're a minority-ghetto type, have no musical talent whatsoever, and can't catch a ball to save your life, you have no choice but to be a failure in life, or become a traitorous dog.

Now, to "keepin it real".....
Much of what you call "keepin it real" is the most artificial consumerism I've ever seen. Do you know who the entire hip-hop marketing ploy is targeting? I'll state it: pseudo-rebellious suburban kids with too much of daddy's money and too little grey-matter to see through a simple media-campaign. They buy expensive 'ghetto-style' clothing. Much like buying faded jeans.
The abbreviated version:
Nobody is "keepin it real". The people in 'the hood' are doing the same things they did before. Meanwhile, multinational, multibillion dollar companies (owned and operated by Whitey) are making billions of dollars by peddling a culture to stupid white kids that don't belong to it.
This is both an argument for why the phrase "keepin it real" is inappropriate, and why people are stupid and should be shot. But I think I'll apply it to the former (this time).

I'll move on to clothing and such.
If you have a job, you dress for that job. I'll use Warren as an example (hope you don't mind, you're conveniently already involved).
Apparently he has long hair and dresses in old clothes. Good for him.
Now say he was to be offered a position as, I dunno, CEO of Pepsi.
If he wears a suit to work, is he a sellout?

I've gotta go to bed now, but I've got more later...... if I can retain it without rereading too much....

Lil Lightnin

18th April 2004, 20:16

Here, I found it -

http://www.icyhotstunta.com/

I'm not quite sure what to think of this website. I originally thought it was a joke, but after reading some of the language and points made in prior posts, I'm not so sure anymore.

wb256

18th April 2004, 20:19

I'll move on to clothing and such.
If you have a job, you dress for that job. I'll use Warren as an example (hope you don't mind, you're conveniently already involved).
Apparently he has long hair and dresses in old clothes. Good for him.
Now say he was to be offered a position as, I dunno, CEO of Pepsi.
If he wears a suit to work, is he a sellout?

I've gotta go to bed now, but I've got more later...... if I can retain it without rereading too much....

I'd hope not. I have a suit and some nice clothing for job interviews, etc. However, I'm going to be treeplanting or doing manual labour for the next long while, so getting a haircut isn't nexessary, plus I like my long hair.

When the time comes that I need to cut my hair (if it comes), I'll cut it. I personally think it's ridiculous that I have to, it's a lame cultural practice that serves nothing but to keep people who are already rich, rich. However, I doubt it'll change anytime soon.

Lil Lightnin

18th April 2004, 20:40

But whats the deal in the office? If I go to work in an Enyce shirt with baggy ecko jeans sittin right low what makes me any worse at the job than guy in tha next cubicle over sportin a suit he jus' dropped 10 large on?

Whats the deal? The deal is the individual wearing the suit is portraying himself as a professional person who is determined to succeed at the job. They take the job they have seriously. This isn't some kind of white-washed scheme to get everyone to conform. I don't think you'd have a very hard time finding hundreds of very successful non-black people in society who sport professional type dress clothing. Ever see Kobe Bryant at his court appearances? He's in a suit. And don't give me some BS on how the judge is white, or the courts are, because you've got a thing coming if you think thats how it works. He's doing it to make it look like he cares about why he's there. Ironically, keepin' it real is not how it always works in the Real World.

Insane Power Pilot

18th April 2004, 20:55

When the time comes that I need to cut my hair (if it comes), I'll cut it. I personally think it's ridiculous that I have to, it's a lame cultural practice that serves nothing but to keep people who are already rich, rich. However, I doubt it'll change anytime soon.

Haircutting is a barbaric capitalist practice now? Good gosh...nobody makes me cut my hair...but I do anyway because when it gets too long it hangs into my eyes and is overall very annoying. I don't give a hoot about looking presentable and I honestly don't think it matters that much...I got my job at Labatt when I nearly had a full blown mullet. :D But that's my choice I guess.

What were we talking about again? :o

Tomtom

19th April 2004, 03:54

okay okay, enough of everyone tooting their horns,

really...

wb256

19th April 2004, 10:06

Haircutting is a barbaric capitalist practice now? Good gosh...nobody makes me cut my hair...but I do anyway because when it gets too long it hangs into my eyes and is overall very annoying. I don't give a hoot about looking presentable and I honestly don't think it matters that much...I got my job at Labatt when I nearly had a full blown mullet. :D But that's my choice I guess.

What were we talking about again? :o

People who can afford grooming get better jobs. I can afford it, I just don't think it's something that's completely necessary. Hygiene is one thing, being required to shower and shave daily and wear brand new clothes to be taken seriously is another.

Lance

19th April 2004, 11:02

Whats the deal? The deal is the individual wearing the suit is portraying himself as a professional person who is determined to succeed at the job. They take the job they have seriously. This isn't some kind of white-washed scheme to get everyone to conform. I don't think you'd have a very hard time finding hundreds of very successful non-black people in society who sport professional type dress clothing. Ever see Kobe Bryant at his court appearances? He's in a suit. And don't give me some BS on how the judge is white, or the courts are, because you've got a thing coming if you think thats how it works. He's doing it to make it look like he cares about why he's there. Ironically, keepin' it real is not how it always works in the Real World.

Im not saying they dont have to, all Im sayin is that if they dont want to they shouldnt have to just for people to view them as professionals.

piper

19th April 2004, 12:23

*Yawn* lets all stop beating our chests, its gettting downright funny now. Its easy to say over the net that you are one thing and be another entirly, keep discussions as discussions and not turn them into who is 'ghettoer' or 'more hood' or tougher or whatever.

piper

19th April 2004, 12:36

Alright, last post I make here to respond to our favorite ghetto superstar's 'comments'. I will also contradict my last post in another thread by beating my own drum for a second. I wasen't born with a silver spoon, I am classified as Middle Class, yet whatever many I want I work for, I want money from mom or dad, gotta earn it. Otherwise, I get it myself. I was never, am not and will never be spoiled. And I have friends who drss all thugged out and whatnot, and I can accept that, I poke fun at it sometimes, like I poke fun at buddies of mine who skateboard, they take it and crack a few back at me. But they don't talk in ebonics consistently, maybye a few words put in here or there, even I do it...sometimes. I speak my mind and if I think someone has a new style that looks hilarious (silly patterns stitched on your jeans, hats worn at odd angles, pants tucked into your tube socks), I have no problem pointing it out or even openly laughing at that person. I am opinionated and everyone is entitled to my opinion :D . You don't like it, great. Argue, I love to argue. But don't insult me. You seem to think I don't have the stones to say that in person, fine, but let it remain as a thought because I do not take c*** from anyone, be it via internet or to my face. And this thread, thanks to you Ghetto Superstar and your consisent blabbering on about off topic things, has turned into a slagging match and I call on our benevolent moderator to lock it. Thank you to the rest of you folks for putting up with this rather self-horn-tooting post. Last one I make.