Defaulters

[Poseidon]

Hey guys,

Next year I will be the new RPO for my corps, and we will also be having a new coxswain as several of our senior cadets are aging out/moving, etc. The new 'swain and I were discussing that we'd like to implement a formal and official RPO/Cox'n defaulters system, but have NO idea where to start. If you have any suggestions about what to do (i.e. what you do at your corps, what you think should be done, etc.) just drop a line here and your ideas will be greatly appreciated! :)

[Sundborg]

I wouldn't even worry about it. There is no need in having a Defaulters in the corps.

[Poseidon]

I wouldn't even worry about it. There is no need in having a Defaulters in the corps.

So what is your solution in dealing with cadets who show up with a horrible uniform, disregard orders, disrespect authority, etc.?

[Lt(N) Jean Cyr]

We don't support the Defaulters concept in Pacific Region anymore. I'm reasonably certain that our region's position is being embraced nation-wide.

J

[engineer]

I have an old manual from 1983 and it explains defaulters.

Defaulters – Routine at defaulters is quite simple. When the defaulter is called by the CPO or PO who is bringing up the case, he marches to the point just in front of the table. The PO will then order “remove headdress”, and the charge will be read. Then the delegated officer examines the case by questioning the defaulter and any witnesses. On completion of the investigation, the officer may do one of four times.

1. He may dismiss the case.
2. He may award a punishment.
3. He may pass the case on to the appropriate senior officer.
4. He may stand the case over to collect more evidence.

Whatever the decision is, it will be repeated by the PO who will then order, “replace headdress; left or right turn; quick march”.

[Poseidon]

We don't support the Defaulters concept in Pacific Region anymore. I'm reasonably certain that feeling is being embraced nation-wide.

J
Again I ask the questions...what would be your solution to the problems posed above? I'm not defending the defaulters system, but rather, I'm interested to see how you handle situations such as the ones I posted above.

[Lt(N) Jean Cyr]

So what is your solution in dealing with cadets who show up with a horrible uniform, disregard orders, disrespect authority, etc.?


This is the solution.

http://www.cadets.net/pac/support/admin/prci/227.pdf

[engineer]

Last march a PO at my corp told an Aslt from a different corp at flotilla comp to go F*** off.
Then she told the ACA to go to hell.
Nothing was done.
She got an award at annual.
What kind of example does she set for the cadets.


I was not RPO at the time.

[Lt(N) Jean Cyr]

What kind of example does she set for the cadets.

A poor one?





I was not RPO at the time.


What would you have done if you were?

J

[Poseidon]

This is the solution.

http://www.cadets.net/pac/support/admin/prci/227.pdf

Essentially, that is defaulters...just formally written. For example, in the document you linked for me, paragraphs 40-43 outline what would be done at any corps/squadron that I've heard of. The rest of the document is very similar. I don't quite understand how you don't like to use defaulters when that is EXACTLY what THAT is!

[Lt(N) Jean Cyr]

Essentially, that is defaulters...just formally written. For example, in the document you linked for me, paragraphs 40-43 outline what would be done at any corps/squadron that I've heard of. The rest of the document is very similar. I don't quite understand how you don't like to use defaulters when that is EXACTLY what THAT is!


The document outlines how/what should be done. What is missing is the formal "Defaulter's Parade"...the whole "march the guilty B****** in."

I thought that was what you were looking for ;)

J

[J Hillsden]

Essentially, that is defaulters...just formally written. For example, in the document you linked for me, paragraphs 40-43 outline what would be done at any corps/squadron that I've heard of. The rest of the document is very similar. I don't quite understand how you don't like to use defaulters when that is EXACTLY what THAT is!

The difference is, it's done by the adult staff - not the senior cadets.

[Poseidon]

The document outlines how/what should be done. What is missing is the formal "Defaulter's Parade"...the whole "march the guilty B****** in."

I thought that was what you were looking for ;)

J

A similar system is used within that document, having the CO 'investigate', etc. But nonetheless, that is veering away from my question, how do some corps handle defaulters, primarily answers from RPOs, Deputy WO1s would be appreciated as they are, according to CATOs, responsible for cadet discipline.

[Logan]

in the steps listed in an earlier post it states that the designated officer would be the one to decide if something will be done

[engineer]

What would you have done if you were?

J

First of all i would stopped her then and there asked her to go with the Aslt somewhere with out cadets hanging around. I would of gotten my CO (becasue my XO quit the week before) to judge what we should do. I would of suggested that she should be punished for what she did maybe write a letter to the Aslt or an essay on what she should of done. If she didnt do that then i would suggest that she should think about why she is in cadets.

[engineer]

in the steps listed in an earlier post it states that the designated officer would be the one to decide if something will be done


The senior cadet would be the one carrying the punishment out

[Logan]

yes but an officer will be deciding the correct and proper punishment which will then be conducted by a Sr NCO

[engineer]

yes but an officer will be deciding the correct and proper punishment which will then be conducted by a Sr NCO

I don’t think a cadet should have the power to make punishment for another cadet. He should have the power to suggest.

[Sundborg]

This thread is really getting no where. There is no real need for a defaulters system. Each case can be delt with on a case-by-case basis and at the required level of chain of command. Not all cadets getting in trouble need to have a "hearing" or their "case" presented to them.

[Logan]

yes the Sr cadet doesn't create the punishment just impliments the one that the officer has given to the one being punished

[Profound Darkness]

You guys don't whip bricks at your cadets when they're bad??? (that's a joke, btw...)

When our cadets act up and get defaulters, we normally get them to do something pointless like get a stack of chairs and carry them one at a time to somewhere else, and then bring them back one at a time. If you're looking for ideas about what kind of punishment are awarded for what kind of behavior, just use your imagination... You can't do a few of these, but this is just an example. You basically just need to make a list of what bad behaviour will cost you.

Swearing, Cruddy Uniform, Talking Back, etc = Polishing the ships bell.
Hitting other cadets, Damaging Property, etc = Essay.
Insubordination = Tombstoned on a gravel road.
Murder, Grand Theft Auto, Arson, etc. = Thousands of dollars in Bribe monies for everyone. Plus you have to tap dance and act like a leprechaun at the next mess dinner and empty your pot of gold into the corps "save the whalers" foundation.

[RegularGuy]

Punishment is a weighty thing. The punishment however, should relate directly to the offense. Carrying chairs aimlessly everywhere is abuse, not discipline. My suggestion would be to allow punishment to be handed out by the senior cadets only as it pertains to limmiting the privledges they are entitled to give, such as cancelling a lengthened break between periods of classroom instruction, or running a drill class through a double period instead of giving a 5 minute break. Aside from this the senior cadets' duty is to bring the offense to the attention of the officers, and they would deal with it according to regulations. A "formalized informal" system of documenting reporting incidents would be helpful. Develop a system of feedback whereby cadets would recieve a report, with a copy remaining with the issuer, and one going to the TrgO. Grade the feedback reports according to unsatisfactory, marginal, pass, average, above average and superior. In this system everything would be documented, and the offending cadet would see the mere report as a punishment lessening the need for more serious measures. Repeated Marg ratings could lead to a U rating, and repeated U ratings could carry consequences. On the flip side, you would have a formal way to report adequate or good performance in every area of training which would assist with selection for awards, camps and promotions. We all know that documentation and recognition for good performance are also sorely neglected in the CCM; this could help.

[frammy]

When i was a cadet in 1990, if i did anything to step out of line the senior cadets would take me around the back of the unit and give me a good kicking!

Now believe it or not, the guy who is now the unit chairman and wont stand for that type of behaviour was one of the worst in the unit to beat us all up!!

go figure

[whalersailore]

Hey guys,

Next year I will be the new RPO for my corps, and we will also be having a new coxswain as several of our senior cadets are aging out/moving, etc. The new 'swain and I were discussing that we'd like to implement a formal and official RPO/Cox'n defaulters system, but have NO idea where to start. If you have any suggestions about what to do (i.e. what you do at your corps, what you think should be done, etc.) just drop a line here and your ideas will be greatly appreciated! :)


Our corp doesnt apply the defaulters system, honestly I dont think we need it. We just use the chain of command and it works like a charm. The cadets are usally very respectful of our officers and senior cadets, many of our officers are teachers and they are very good dealing with the youth. If the cadet has no respect at all for his peers and seniors we just tell them up front that if your not willing to listen to your senior cadets and officers, then maybe you should think about if cadets is the right program for you.

[GUNNER_GOTH_ROSIEO]

cant you kick them out of cadets i am not saying that is the solution to everything cant you threten them and mabey they just might get stuff sorted out and be good .....like is that an option?

[Flashman]

Kicking people out isn't always a viable solution. The CCM is here to promote certain aims. Usually the cadets who misbehave are in the direst need of these "improvements". If those cadets are no longer present, how are we supposed to make them better? That said, I still believe that if a misbehaving cadet is going to force others to quit out of disgust, etc, then the problem cadet should be removed from the program.

[hartleymartin]

Usually for minor offences, the Killicks will give one or two warnings.

For repeat or serious offences, the case is taken to the Officer of the Day or another staff member such as the Coxwain (once it has passed through the senior cadet chain). If the case is deemed to be serious enough to be dealt with by the unit staff then it is put on a defaulter's parade.

The parade iteself runs basically as outlined earlier, but usually present are:

The CO or XO, Coxwain, Divisional Officer, Divisional Senior Cadet. There may be one or two other members of staff present to bear witness that the parade was carried out in a fair and decent manner (ie Coxwain not screaming abuse at cadets).

Reasons for putting a cadet on defaulters are usually breaches of the ship's standing orders, insubordination, negligent behaviour, etc. For general bad behaviour, sloppiness, etc it usually comes under a breach of code of conduct.

It is a good thing to have to deal with problems if they ever arise. I'd rather explain to a cadet what they are doing wrong to correct their behaviour, but if a cadet is going to be openly a nuisence, then defaulters is a good tool to use.

[*TarpoS*]

Our corp doesnt apply the defaulters system, honestly I dont think we need it. We just use the chain of command and it works like a charm. The cadets are usally very respectful of our officers and senior cadets, many of our officers are teachers and they are very good dealing with the youth. If the cadet has no respect at all for his peers and seniors we just tell them up front that if your not willing to listen to your senior cadets and officers, then maybe you should think about if cadets is the right program for you.

wow.. are you kidding me? how the heck do u get them to actually RESPECT you? like, NCO's at my corp getting respect on a regular baisis is like, UNHEARD of ... im not saying that our corps is like, horrible or anything(it's actually not bad at all).... it's just the po's constantly have to remind the jr cadets to respect us, use our ranks, and blah blah blah...

[J.A. McCallum]

No one HAS to respect anyone.

There is an old adage... "Respect is not given, it must be earned". (or something along those lines)

You can't just expect to get respect. You must earn it. Telling someone, or anyone that they MUST respect you is outrageous, and besides, will not get you anywhere.

In some instances, the respect is given to the position, instead of the person.

[Gunz4life]

I agree, it is to the person who gains the respect, is honoured with it. You need to be the right kind of person to earn, and gain respect of others. You have to fill the role of your position. This is what get's you the desereved right you need to become an efficient cadet.

[*TarpoS*]

i realize all of that... and yea i have tried to gain respect from the junior cadets at my corps.. plenty of us have.. but hold on.. if there's like, an officer i really dont like and i dont think he/she deserves much respect from me becuase they havent earned it... becuase of the things they do or say or w/e... im obviously still going to respect them because well... they're a much higher rank and they are in a position where i basically HAVE to respect them... that's just how it goes in my brain.. lol i dont wanna start some huge fight and get everyone against me.. lol but yea i guess im just gonna have to deal with the junior cadets not respecting us as much as we'd like... :rolleyes:

[Kortytoh]

wow.. are you kidding me? how the heck do u get them to actually RESPECT you? like, NCO's at my corp getting respect on a regular baisis is like, UNHEARD of ... im not saying that our corps is like, horrible or anything(it's actually not bad at all).... it's just the po's constantly have to remind the jr cadets to respect us, use our ranks, and blah blah blah...

What the #&$*%& are you talking about, PO? We must go to different corps. The PO's who don't get respect are the ones who, frankly, don't deserve it (I think you know who I may be referring to)... and having to remind cadets to use rank is not a sign of utter lack of respect, just of a bad habit left over from worse times (which I will not discuss here). Even this occurs only in a minority of the juniors, and NEVER in the O/C ranks.
I would like to remind you that you have been a Petty Officer for under three months... be careful before you go and speak out about areas in which you are not well-versed.

[*TarpoS*]

haha yep..guess that's MY cue to shutup.. :rolleyes:

anyway.... back on topic...

[The Rodney Chick]

At my corps we have steps. What step you are put on depends on what you did. I don't remember them 'cause I was talking to the XO when we were told them but they're posted on the bulletin board so I'm going to read it...

[Iceman87]

I myself beleive cadets is way to lax....I was the corps RPO at my corps last year and got angered over something and practically told me CO to f*** off...I received a demotion for 2 weeks.. I then got 2 awards at annual. I also got my pic of Staff, Camp, or and Intnl Exchange...weird huh? Now I have learned my lesson and have changed for the better and am going to work hard next year to see the discipline level go up.

[PO1_Beere]

I myself beleive cadets is way to lax....I was the corps RPO at my corps last year and got angered over something and practically told me CO to f*** off...I received a demotion for 2 weeks.. I then got 2 awards at annual. I also got my pic of Staff, Camp, or and Intnl Exchange...weird huh? Now I have learned my lesson and have changed for the better and am going to work hard next year to see the discipline level go up.

I agree that cadets is too slack. However, now that we have the human rights issues, nothing can be done about behavioural issues anymore. The respect is way too low...insubordinance has reached new highs. Something could be done, but it would be "abusive".

[Iceman87]

EXACTLY :mad:

[Lt(N) Jean Cyr]

I find it interesting that you are both from Falkland :)

The respect issue starts with you.

It's a pity you feel that "human rights" has limited your ability to perform.

J

[Iceman87]

Actually I think its the officers our corps has gotten over the years. Their laziness and lack of enthusiasm has caused our corps to lose a very good reputation. Thankfully a new overhaul this year in officers will elevate us up as we used to be, we are all waiting for a brand new year of actual cadets and not "babysitting" :)

[Juice]

Actually I think its the officers our corps has gotten over the years. Their laziness and lack of enthusiasm has caused our corps to lose a very good reputation. Thankfully a new overhaul this year in officers will elevate us up as we used to be, we are all waiting for a brand new year of actual cadets and not "babysitting" :)

Sure, that may be a part of the problem, but you can't put the blame on the officers. The main brunt of the interaction of the cadets comes from seniors to juniors, and if the cadets arent respecting you, then its not the fault of the officers. Sure, if the officers arent enthusiastic, then that could cause a problem, but in the end its all up to the seniors to make it fun for the cadets, because you guys interact with the cadets more than the officers do. As well, it is up to you seniors to motivate yourselves to do a good job as well. So start taking responsibility for these things rather than thrusting the brunt of the blame for why cadets dont resepct you or the corps reputation going down solely on the officers. I never understood that until I became a CI myself. Officers and CI's give of their time so that cadets can take place. So before blaming them for why the corps is going down, you should thank them for everything they do for the unit. I for one had a hard time getting to and from Lanark last year. It was at least an hour and a half trip from my place to the corps and I didnt get home until midnight every thursday. I dont know about you, but if I go through something like that to help out cadets, then I wouldnt want to be blamed for why the corps reputation is going down, so I ask you to stop and think before thrusting blame and responsibility on someone else.

[Iceman87]

Perhaps at your corps. At our corps the Seniors do there best make it fun for the cadets. Unfortunately due to CHAP and other things we cant do anything about the cadets who dont care making it bad for the ones who do. As well 80% of our activites due to random problems with our officer staff (last year) 4 Trips were cancelled including our March break trip that kids paid 200 dollars for and never got back. Our officers were not to bright last year but this year it will be different so I am happy. I know it sounds like we are knocking our officers but you dont know it until you live it :)

[Juice]

Perhaps at your corps. At our corps the Seniors do there best make it fun for the cadets. Unfortunately due to CHAP and other things we cant do anything about the cadets who dont care making it bad for the ones who do. As well 80% of our activites due to random problems with our officer staff (last year) 4 Trips were cancelled including our March break trip that kids paid 200 dollars for and never got back. Our officers were not to bright last year but this year it will be different so I am happy. I know it sounds like we are knocking our officers but you dont know it until you live it :)

Believe me, I've lived it, and now I have seen what it is like on both sides of the fence. I just think that you cant blame everything on the officers. Don't tkae out on them your frustration with CHAP. It is a policy that was put in place from way above them. they are just following orders. Officers have a legal responsibility to the cadets, so unless they want to face possible jail time and court martialing and all that, they follow these policies to avoid that. My advice is to not complain about how hard it is to discipline cadets (which I know is very hard in this day and age) and think of better ways to do it without breaking the rules. Take some of that energy used to hate the system and figure out ways to make it better, because complaining about it wont change it.

[engineer]

At my corp I’m RPO because my CO says in responsible and will do my job. But there are 5 cadets not including my cox’n that are PO1 and above. I can’t tell them about anything ex on a training night a PO1 walked in wearing work dress with combat boots and a beret. Now I know that is not in CATO so I told him about it. He starts yelling at me about how he is a PO1 and that I can’t say anything about his dress. I go to an officer told him and he said he would talk to him. That didn’t happen the week after he did it again. I don’t know why I’m RPO if I can’t do my job.

[Iceman87]

I agree....its getting quite ridiculous. Id like to meet this person in charge of chap. I could probably argue with them for about 3 weeks...Its getting worse than preschool. :(

[Bos'n101]

Engineer, when stuff like that happens, confront them! Tell them then and there, "PO, I am the Regulating Petty Officer of this corps, appointed by the Commanding Officer. So yes, according to CATO 31-01, I can say things about the quality of your dress and deportment. Furthermore, according to CATO 35-01, the Sea Cadet Dress Regulations, you are not permitted to wear either that beret, nor are you permitted to wear those boots. Now, you're going to deep six that attitude, and next week, you are to come in dressed on a par, worthy of that crown on your shoulder! If you have a problem with this, you can take it up with the XO!"
Position supercedes rank in such matters. Stay strong, RPO is the toughest job a cadet can do.

[Juice]

Engineer, when stuff like that happens, confront them! Tell them then and there, "PO, I am the Regulating Petty Officer of this corps, appointed by the Commanding Officer. So yes, according to CATO 31-01, I can say things about the quality of your dress and deportment. Furthermore, according to CATO 35-01, the Sea Cadet Dress Regulations, you are not permitted to wear either that beret, nor are you permitted to wear those boots. Now, you're going to deep six that attitude, and next week, you are to come in dressed on a par, worthy of that crown on your shoulder! If you have a problem with this, you can take it up with the XO!"
Position supercedes rank in such matters. Stay strong, RPO is the toughest job a cadet can do.

Yep, it certainly is. You are the wall between the rest of the cadets and the coxn. You are the arsehole of the unit, and you shouldnt be taking crap from anyone. I was RPO for two years, and I found it to be a more grueling job than coxn was.

[Lt(N) Jean Cyr]

I agree....its getting quite ridiculous. Id like to meet this person in charge of chap. I could probably argue with them for about 3 weeks...Its getting worse than preschool. :(


It isn't "one person"....the programme was put into place by ALL Regions and the National Directorate staffs.

*sigh...it's truly unfortunate that you don't seem to understand that you can make a difference.

J

[Juice]

It isn't "one person"....the programme was put into place by ALL Regions and the National Directorate staffs.

*sigh...it's truly unfortunate that you don't seem to understand that you can make a difference.

J

It's very true. Like i said before, take that energy that you are using to complain about teh system and find creative ways to work within it. COmplaining wont change a thing and it will only make you bitter and not allow you to perform as a cadet to the best of your ability or set a good example.

[DMJohnson]

It's very true. Like i said before, take that energy that you are using to complain about teh system and find creative ways to work within it. COmplaining wont change a thing and it will only make you bitter and not allow you to perform as a cadet to the best of your ability or set a good example.

here here!

At my corps, we don't have an official RPO, so instead the POOD does that job, but beause of the lack of reponsibility from alot of our seniors, defaulters and so on are just a seperate division. OOH, mayb thy'll sweep te floor for all of 5 secondes. Because im drum major, i usually get asked to "act" as RPO each night, but i do get regulers...so i would appreciate, too, some advice on how to deal with these people. I am just running out of ideas... :( thnx

[DCaceres]

Po friesen geez our corps isnt THAT bad! i mean yah there some not so good cadets but you learn to deal wiht them! i was stuck with a handfull myself last/this year and you just deal with it. PLus i didnt see you trying very much this year anyways i mean with yuorself getting in so much trouble good way to set the example RPO!

[Iceman87]

Thanks QPO1 Caceres perhaps next year you can be the RPO. Then you can really know whats going on and not just the little problems people in the Guard have.

[Bos'n101]

It sounds condescending, but its so true! You don't really know what goes on until you're either the RPO, or Cox'n!

[DCaceres]

I really dont want to start a war here PO! but i know i dont know ALL the problems we have at the corps but yuod be surprise that i know about most of theM!like i said your not there all the time and alot of stuff goes on! but thats our corps problems and we shouldnt be discussing them on cadet world so maybe if next year we wanna change something we should talk about it on the chiefs and pos weekend or 5 day sail in august/october but not here! so yah thanx Po!
oh and by the way some of problems the guard has arent little!

[Iceman87]

like he said. you dont know until your the rpo.

[DCaceres]

Okay lets leave it at that! and IF i come back well see what happens! PO!