Abortion Issues [Archive] - CadetWorld Forums

Dick

11th June 2004, 19:39

I'm going to bump in here about abortion for a second.

The Catholic church is against abortion because it is against killing other humans. Depending on where you believe life begins (either being born or at conception or sometime in the middle) is where you believe life is created. I belive the catholic church is in the position that life begins at conception. In which case abortion is killing a human life, which is wrong.

Most peoples opinion on abortion comes from the same thing. And it mostly boils down to where you think life begins and whether killing that life is wrong.

So you don't need the Bible to say "Abortion = bad idea, go to hell"

offguard96

12th June 2004, 06:38

Most peoples opinion on abortion comes from the same thing. And it mostly boils down to where you think life begins and whether killing that life is wrong.

The problem with the anti-abortion arguments I've heard is that they don't think rationally about the foetus and its nature...Specifically, that the foetus is technically a parasite in the mother's body. I don't see any hooplah made when tumours are removed...and yet these are lumps of growing human cells that are just as shapeless as a foetus is for most of its time in the womb.

Tomtom

12th June 2004, 09:47

The argument is with the rights of the unborn baby, or the rights of the mother.

It is something that will divide our society for years and years to come.

The Blue Tory

12th June 2004, 10:01

The problem with the anti-abortion arguments I've heard is that they don't think rationally about the foetus and its nature...Specifically, that the foetus is technically a parasite in the mother's body. I don't see any hooplah made when tumours are removed...and yet these are lumps of growing human cells that are just as shapeless as a foetus is for most of its time in the womb.
so your comparing a baby to a cancer? :eek:

An embryo will develop into a human being... a cancer won't

jgoguen

12th June 2004, 11:06

He's comparing the process, and based on what I learned about what a parasite is, yes I'd definitely say the unborn baby is a parasite in the mother's body. A tumor is also a parasite. Just because the unborn baby will eventually (hopefully) be born and live a long live , doesn't mean the fetus doesn't share that characteristic with a tumor, cancerous or otherwise. And if you want to get technical, the fetus and the tumor can have another common characteristic, depending on when you think life begins: they're both alive. It's proven that cancer is your body's cells or foreign cells multiplying rapidly without the same restrictions on cell division as a normal, non-cancerous cell. Thus, cancer is alive. A fetus, depending on if you think life begins before birth, is also alive.

"Dear Sir:
I was especially impressed with your Sept 345 issue, "1st Letter of Paul to the Corinthians".
Paul really engaged me, as a Corinthian, right down to the last Word.
However, I was wondering: Do Christ's words have to be in red? I'm really a big fan of the magenta, myself. Just a thought.
Cheers,
Mike from Corinthea."
:D
I like it :D Although I'm not such a fan of magenta...maybe a darker colour, with some contrast against the white pages ;)

offguard96

12th June 2004, 11:44

Why do we neuter animals if God intends for them to be fruitful as well? Shouldn't this practice also be illegal, according to the anti-abortion arguments? You are surgically or chemically removing an animal's God-given right to reproduce and "be fruitful".

Also, regarding the tumours...they are human cells growing fast, just like a foetus is human cells growing fast. At the end of the day, it's the host's call whether to have the growth removed or not...so it should be the mother (the host's) call whether the baby should be removed or not, and nobody else's.

Another thought...if you have a tumour, isn't it God's will that that tumour be allowed to grow inside you? Are you not directly disobeying God's will by having it removed?

Yet another thought...what about tapeworms, and other gastrointestinal parasites? If they grow inside you, then you are the host, and you play the same role in their lives as our mothers did in ours. I know they're not human, but they are alive, and they are God's creatures, are they not? So is it not possibly God's will that you be stricken with them?

Of course it's your right to keep a tumour or tapeworms or a foetus...as it should be everyone's right to keep all these things...but just because you want to keep these things alive (as your God obviously intends) doesn't mean that everyone should have to, because they may not believe in the same God as you, and even if they do they may have a different idea of how they can best obey that God.

wb256

12th June 2004, 15:14

Anti-abortion arguments DO think rationally about the process (well, religious based ones anyways). The problem is theologically deciding when the soul enters the body; upon conception, at birth, etc.

I am personally pro-choice. I don't think theological issues such as these should come into play when governing a society (as the church and state are supposed to be seperate). However, people (pro-lifers) have the right to express their opinions, and not ALL of them are crazy clinic bombing lunatics.

There's many pro-life people out there with a level head on their shoulders that arn't about to go and blow up a building or shoot someone because of what they've read in a book who's authenticity is so questionable (see the homosexuality thread for my take on why the bible isn't to be taken literally - due to the canonization process and the numerous translations).

Insane Power Pilot

12th June 2004, 15:39

Thank you Warren, I was just about to point out that pro life does not equal anti-abortion. Anti-abortionists are the ones who like to firebomb abortion clinics and shoot doctors.

Of course there are many reasons to get an abortion, but I think that using it as a form of birth control or euthanasia are completely irresponsible. If you were to ask anyone born with severe birth defects or who was given up for adoption at birth if they were glad they got the chance to live, I can bet you big money that they would all say yes.

And then of course, with this arguement, you can get drawn into the whole slippery slope of stem cell research and genetic selection of favorable traits in an unborn fetus, in other words, creating "designer children" and that just makes my stomach turn...

I only favour abortion when pregnancy presents a grave and imminent danger to the mother's life.

Logan

12th June 2004, 15:44

I'm pro-life because really when you get down to it the abortion laws allow it up to a certain amount of time into the pregency but really whats the difference in the fetus between 2/3s of the course and 2/3s and a day not much, what the real issue behind this is when do people stop looking at the fetus as a bunch of cells and start looking at it as a yet to be born person. that is my opinion and i'm in agreement with Insane Power Pilot, if the pregency is the cause of serious health problems then yes do an abortion if not then i don't see a reason for it.

Earlam

12th June 2004, 16:05

I personally don't think you become human until you pop out and start complaining about it (after all, don't all humans complain?).
And besides that. When you're in your mother, you survive off of her. You are a parasite (as said before), and she is, undebatably, a human being. Her wishes take precedents over the wishes of a clump of undeveloped cells.
Oh, wait. Clumps of undeveloped cells don't have wishes. Therefore they're not human.

Really, all any of us are is a clump of cells. We'd like to think we're special in some way, but there's no proof that we are.

Tomtom

12th June 2004, 18:15

I'm pro-life because really when you get down to it the abortion laws allow it up to a certain amount of time into the pregency but really whats the difference in the fetus between 2/3s of the course and 2/3s and a day not much,

there are no laws limiting the amount of time in which a woman may have an abortion in Canada. Medically, they limit it to 20 weeks, only to protect the health of the mother. It has nothing to do with the "age" of the unborn fetus.

Canadian laws and regulations:
During 1988, the Canadian Supreme Court declared the Federal law regulating abortion (Section 287 of the Criminal Code) was in conflict with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms -- the Canadian constitution. It was thus unconstitutional. Parliament tried to pass a replacement law, but was unable to compromise on a suitable wording. The country has remained to this day without a law regulating abortions. Decisions are left up to the women, their doctors and medical associations. Abortions are readily available up to 20 weeks in hospitals of most large cities, and in a few free-standing clinics.

Scoopable

12th June 2004, 19:01

wb256

12th June 2004, 19:20

The legal definition (and a simplified explenation) in canadian law, when it comes to babies is, it's not killing a person, or a canadian citizen if it has not taken a breath outside of the mothers body.

Therefor even though canada has no legal standing on abortion being legal or not, there basically letting it be legal.

I am not one agaisnt abortion, If the family cannot support the baby the shouldn't have it, nor should they put the baby up for adoption, I have friends who were adopted, and they find life hard even though leading a good life, they alwasy wonder why they were given up on.

But would you rather your friends were aborted rather than you meeting them? Their life may not be amazing, but they still have the right to live it!

I'm pro-choice, but I don't think adoption is a bad thing, just another option.

I don't think it's our place to say if a family should or shouldn't have the child. I'm pro-choice, not pro-abortion (by saying that someone should not have a child, you're becoming pro-abortion, as opposed to pro-choice).

sgt4life

12th June 2004, 21:53

There is also quality of life for the mother. Think of a College student who is preparing for a carrer path, has a bright future ahead of her, and through a stupid mistake, gets pregnant. She COULD carry the child to term and have it adopted, but how is she supposed to continue her schooling through all that mess? Being pregnant is hard physically and psychologicall, nevermind the emotional issues involved in an unwanted pregnancy. Should she drop everything? What if she can't pick it up again? Picture this same sort of scenario for a High School student. What is this girl suppsed to do?

It doesn't present an actual health risk to these girls, but it will prevent them from reaching their goals, all through one stupid mistake. There are very few mistakes that can do something like that. I know people will say it's easy to prevent it, but is a girl who can barely buy pads or tampons without blushing in embarrasment REALLY going to be able to buy a box of condoms? <- (describes many, MANY girls, don't kid yourself.)

Insane Power Pilot

13th June 2004, 00:29

There is also quality of life for the mother. Think of a College student who is preparing for a carrer path, has a bright future ahead of her, and through a stupid mistake, gets pregnant. She COULD carry the child to term and have it adopted, but how is she supposed to continue her schooling through all that mess? Being pregnant is hard physically and psychologicall, nevermind the emotional issues involved in an unwanted pregnancy. Should she drop everything? What if she can't pick it up again? Picture this same sort of scenario for a High School student. What is this girl suppsed to do?

I know someone who did this last month. She had an unplanned pregnancy and she carried the child to term, gave birth in April, and graduated with an Arts degree in June and she is keeping her son. She is married, however. So this did come out of a loving, supportive relationship...all I'm saying is it's not easy, but it can be done.

but is a girl who can barely buy pads or tampons without blushing in embarrasment REALLY going to be able to buy a box of condoms? <- (describes many, MANY girls, don't kid yourself.)

Those vending machines in the bathrooms don't ask questions or judge you. ;)

Chief Hoult

13th June 2004, 01:07

but is a girl who can barely buy pads or tampons without blushing in embarrasment REALLY going to be able to buy a box of condoms? <- (describes many, MANY girls, don't kid yourself.)

Now, I'm pro-choice...and yes, spur of the moment things happen.

BUT sex does come with certain consequences. If the condom breaks, then yeah, accidents happen...but if you're not mature enough to buy condoms to prevent pregnancy/STD's...

CH

Scoopable

13th June 2004, 07:17

Arts degree in June and she is keeping her son.

oh well an arts degree, the baby wouldn't make a difference in her carreer for telecomunitcations :P sorry, just know alot of people with arts degreees who answer phones

Tomtom

13th June 2004, 07:38

but if you're not mature enough to buy condoms to prevent pregnancy/STD's...

...Then you certainly are not mature enough to be raising a child.

CaptWhiteway

13th June 2004, 10:21

I am also a pro-choice advocate. Rapes happen, condoms rip, birth control pills fail, people who make mature choices about sex find themselves pregnant. The morning after pill doesn't always work. I personally know 2 different people this has happened to, both of them chose to have abortions, both of them deal with the extreme mental anguish that comes after an abortion.

My personal dilema enters here, by being pro-choice I must accept that some people who did not make these mature choices are also entitled to this choice. I do not support abortion as a method of birth control, but if I am willing to accept it as a choice for some women, then I must accept it as a choice for all. I can only hope that the system put in place to give abortions is capable of singling out women who use them as birth control, and give these women the support they need.

Another issue that came up between friends and I when discussing this topic was what of the right of the man.... upon the birth of a child, a father becomes as financially and emotionally responsible as the mother. The stress of an unplanned pregnancy can end a relationship, and the choice to have this child rests completely in the woman's hands, if the man decides that an abortion is best for him, why should he become financially responsible? What about the opposite, what if the man wants the child but the woman does not? We decided a few things out of this conversation, first of all the choice needs to be ultimatly the woman's, since it is her body that will change. It would be nice if there existed some sort of legal process by which the man could immediatly terminate his parental rights.... this would be hard to set up, and mediators need to be involved.... but it would only be fair.... Finally, before two people become sexually active and throughout a sexual relationship people NEED to discuss what will happen should they become pregnant. If you aren't mature enough to have the kind of conversation then you aren't mature enough to be having sex.

Capt Nicole Whiteway

wb256

13th June 2004, 13:43

oh well an arts degree, the baby wouldn't make a difference in her carreer for telecomunitcations :P sorry, just know alot of people with arts degreees who answer phones

And there's a lot of people with Arts degrees who are teachers, lawyers, politicians, etc.

The common notion that arts is an "easy" degree is pretty unfounded. There are definatly easy arts classes (well, the testing is different, usually essay format), but it's a completely different system of learning (I find). Much of university level sciences seemed to be competition based, rather than learning based. Arts seemed to teach concepts and important information. Sciences seem to be a competition to see who can (or will work hard enough) to pass exams and what not. I generally feel I've learned something useful/interesting after an arts class, whereas I feel smart but not mentally expanded after a sciences one.

Also, the 15-20 page history essays make up for the difference in testing.

Now, onto the topic of using abortions as a method of Birth Control - I believe there should be some sort of limit as to how many a woman can get (well, at least a limit on how many medicare will pay for), exempting issues such as rape or danger to the mother's life. Also, councelling should be mandatory prior to having an abortion, but the choice should be the mother's in the end.

Ching

13th June 2004, 18:03

oh well an arts degree, the baby wouldn't make a difference in her carreer for telecomunitcations :P sorry, just know alot of people with arts degreees who answer phones
And then there's my dad, the Microbiologist, who doesn't do anything...

Ching

13th June 2004, 18:15

Really, all any of us are is a clump of cells. We'd like to think we're special in some way, but there's no proof that we are.

I'm special. Ask Ed, he'll tell you. :)

Anyway, I agree with the general mood in here: I don't approve of abortion just out of convenience, but I believe that it should be the choice of the mother, just as it's her choice to have sex or not. I also believe that the foetus is not really a human until it is capable of living outside the body (which is getting earlier in the pregnancy all the time, next thing you know, we'll have drive-thru pregnancies! Having a bun in the oven'll take too long, we'll just throw a bun in the deep fryer. )
But I also agree that anyone wanting an abortion should take some counselling before hand, not to be discouraged from it, but to determine that it is, in fact, in the mother's best interests (like, if she just doesn't WANT the baby, would it be better to give the child up for adoption?) But it's the mother's choice, not the church's. That's why we have that little thing separating church from state.

DMCorrigan

13th June 2004, 18:41

Indeed, however I feel that it is also a man's choice to have sex. We're not ALL raging hormones ;)

Ching

13th June 2004, 19:17

Indeed, however I feel that it is also a man's choice to have sex. We're not ALL raging hormones ;)
Sure. SURE you're not all raging hormones.

I'll believe it when I meet a guy who's not.

condor888000

13th June 2004, 19:29

Indeed, however I feel that it is also a man's choice to have sex. We're not ALL raging hormones ;)

You're the first guy I've ever heard say that. We have no choice, we're guys!!!! :D

Aprile

13th June 2004, 19:29

I've always pointed this out to pro-life people. What if a woman/girl was raped and ended up pregnant, would she really want to bring up a child, or bring a child into life who was brought into the world by such a horrible act? I am not against abortion, though I don't believe it is something that should just be thrown around. Like a girl who just has casual sex and doesn't protect herself. I do not believe that abortion should be used as birth control, but at the same time, you can't tell people when or when not they can have an abortion. I know people who have have had pregnancy scares and at that point in their lives, abortion seemed like a good idea.
Personally, I don't think guys should be saying what a woman should do with her body, like I mean, if you are with someone and it's their child, you should talk about it, but guys will never know the feeling of not being ready and being pregnant. Everyone has their opinions, which is a good thing, but the women on here would be the only ones who would have to deside if the child in them should come into the world. (no offence guys, I still like hearing your opinions)

condor888000

13th June 2004, 19:32

Now, on a serious note. I believe that abortion should be avaible if a women wants it, however, that doesn't mean I think it should be a first choice. I also think that the father should have some responsibilty. Ultimatly the decision is the women's, but perhaps the father should have some, even if not much, responsibilty.

Now it's time to sleep. Stupid exams...

piper

14th June 2004, 10:41

No one should have the right to tell a woman that she should have her baby no matter what. It is her decision, and there are too many people on earth already, so the last thing anyone needs is one more unwanted baby. And as was said before, rape and other assaults and accidents do happen.

katielloyd

14th June 2004, 10:59

Society will never agree on abortion because every case is different. Personally, I am pro-choice but I don't believe that abortion should be used as a form of "birth-control". It's sickening the number of women who have had numerous abortions simply because they don't have the intellegence to use a condom. I also know a girl who had an abortion because she didn't want to be fat and decided that after she had a child nobody would want her :mad:
What you have to keep in mind, though, is that sometimes abortions are for the best. Sometimes an ultrasound will show that a feotus is severely deformed, and then the mother is faced with ending the life quickly or letting the child live a life of pain and suffering.

Lola

14th June 2004, 12:37

I am definitely pro-choice. I agree with what everyone's saying about not using abortion as a birth control method. People need to make sure they're taking all necessary precautions before having sex. Birth control should be as accessible as possible.
Which brings me to the U.S. Just recently the Supreme Court ruled to not make the morning-after pills available at drug stores because they were afraid that 14 and 15 year olds might abuse it(I'm not exactly clear on this, but it's a bunch of bull). Women still have to book an appointment with their doctors. Talk about inconvience!
I believe the U.S. made another ruling lasy year to make late-term abortions illegal. I don't know what the cut-off is, but you know what's scary? There were no exceptions made in the event a fetus endangers a mother's life.

katielloyd

14th June 2004, 17:50

the U.S. made another ruling lasy year to make late-term abortions illegal
Actually, I find late term abortions are disgusting and there's no need of them. In a late term abortion the child is capable of living outside the womb, and it is murdered after it is taken out. That's why they're illegal, they actually are murder.

Lola

14th June 2004, 17:58

Actually, I find late term abortions are disgusting and there's no need of them. In a late term abortion the child is capable of living outside the womb, and it is murdered after it is taken out. That's why they're illegal, they actually are murder.

I'm kind of with you on this one... but shouldn't exceptions be made if something terrible happens to the fetus(don't ask me what as I don't really know) or if the fetus endangers the mother's life? In the latter case, is the baby's life more important than the mother's?

katielloyd

14th June 2004, 18:02

I'm kind of with you on this one... but shouldn't exceptions be made if something terrible happens to the fetus(don't ask me what as I don't really know) or if the fetus endangers the mother's life? In the latter case, is the baby's life more important than the mother's?

The removal of the baby from the womb isn't what bothers me, it's the fact that they kill it when they don't have to. If a mother's life is in danger, a cesarean section will be performed at the hospital and both mother and child will be given medical attention. With abortions you not only kill a child, but you put the mother in danger as well since there is not adequate medical facilities in the clinics, in fact they would most likely be sent home after a short observation.

Tomtom

14th June 2004, 18:29

That's why they're illegal, they actually are murder.

No, that is not why a late term abortion is illegal. They are NOT illegal, no form of abortion is illegal in Canada. They are medically not advised, because they pose a health risk to the mother. Simple as that.

In order for someone to commit a homicide in reference to a newborn, legally, in Canada, they would have to inflict injury to the fetus, in order that it be born alive, and then die.

1988: The Supreme Court of Canada strikes down Canada's abortion law as unconstitutional. The law is found to violate section 7 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Chief Justice, Brian Dickson, wrote: "Forcing a woman, by threat of criminal sanction to carry a fetus to term unless she meets certain criteria unrelated to her own priorities and aspirations, is a profound interference with a woman's body and thus a violation of her security of the person.";

In Addition

section 223 of the Criminal Code which says that "a person commits homicide when he causes injury to a child before or during its birth as a result of which the child dies after becoming a human being." The same section defines a "human being ... when it has completely proceeded, in a living state, from the body of its mother whether or not it has completely breathed, it has an independent circulation or the navel string is severed."

for a person to be charged with murder after the death of a fetus, the fetus would have to be intentionally injured before or during birth, would have to be born alive, and later die.

The country has remained to this day without a law regulating abortions. Decisions are left up to the women, their doctors and medical associations.

funkyfairy

14th June 2004, 18:56

An embryo will develop into a human being... a cancer won't

How do you know.....it's not like anyone ever gives cancer a chance :p

Little Cadet

14th June 2004, 19:07

The removal of the baby from the womb isn't what bothers me, it's the fact that they kill it when they don't have to. If a mother's life is in danger, a cesarean section will be performed at the hospital and both mother and child will be given medical attention. With abortions you not only kill a child, but you put the mother in danger as well since there is not adequate medical facilities in the clinics, in fact they would most likely be sent home after a short observation.
You know that sometimes carrying the baby to term is endangering the mother's life, it's not always and only at birth. Are you telling me they are going to perform a cesarian section on a 3 month old fetus and expect it to live? Sometimes you really do have no choice if the risk is high!

And not all clinics are inadequate.....

Jiggy

14th June 2004, 21:06

I am not pro choice or anti. I think that abortion should be used in only extreme cases, such as rape, or danger to the mother.
But I think that if you are old enought to make the decision to have sex, then you should be old enough to have a baby.
thats my two cents!

katielloyd

15th June 2004, 06:00

They are NOT illegal, no form of abortion is illegal in Canada.
I wasn't talking about Canada, I was talking about the new law in the United States that made them illegal there

You know that sometimes carrying the baby to term is endangering the mother's life, it's not always and only at birth. Are you telling me they are going to perform a cesarian section on a 3 month old fetus and expect it to live? Sometimes you really do have no choice if the risk is high!

Again, I was talking about late-term abortions not early ones. Baby's after 7 months have a good chance of surviving, and the precedure is much harder on the woman than an earlier abortion.

Little Cadet

15th June 2004, 06:44

I wasn't talking about Canada, I was talking about the new law in the United States that made them illegal there

Again, I was talking about late-term abortions not early ones. Baby's after 7 months have a good chance of surviving, and the precedure is much harder on the woman than an earlier abortion.You can only get legal abortions in the first trimester, or something like it. Unless you are, again, talking about another country or some kind of corrupt clinic. But I agree, why would you have an abortion at 7 months, I mean it's only carrying it 2 more months... you've gone through most of it. I doubt that they would perform a ceasarian section though, just because someone doesn't want it. In Canada, i'm pretty sure they would get a court order or something like it to force her to carry it to term. Why risk the chance of having the baby having health and all kinds of problems and pay for the baby's care in hospital for months when you can wait 2 more months? And yea I know premature babies have good chances nowadays, I know I was born 3 months premature, and I turned out fine. But that's not the point.

Just imagine this, lets say a mother gets a cesearian section when she was 7 months pregnant. The baby grows up to be a very smart young man, but is paralysed or has some health problems related to his premature birth. There could be lawsuits, but most of all just imagine how that person feels...and thinks "if my mother wouldn't of done this, just because she didn't want to carry 2 more months, I would have been normal" :eek: That is why I say either get an abortion or carry to term, unless it is endangering your life.

Aprile

15th June 2004, 07:04

wb256

15th June 2004, 07:20

The issue of clinics being inadequate could be changed and should have little bearing on decisions to legalize/prohibit abortions.

As for that comment about abortions are "going to be performed anyways" I completely agree. Abortion is actually a natural process - deer eat juniper berries during winters of low food supply to kill their children.

And it will happen anyways. From women using a coathanger or just harming themselves to abort the child (like purposly falling down the stairs or slamming their stomachs into something).

Little Cadet

15th June 2004, 08:09

If a court tried to tell someone they had to carry a baby (which wouldn't happen) she could easily get rid of it. This is why abortions aren't illigal, either a cinlic could do it, or some guy in a ally-way with a clothes hanger.
You got my point. I was just saying that I can't picture any kind of hospital allowing a cesarian section or late-term abortion just because the mother doesn't want it.

Just like anything else, I know it's going to be happening anyways. What i'm saying is don't go putting laws on cesarian sections or legal late-term abortions. Sure it could be safer for those who attempt anyways, but lots of other peopel will take advantage of that instead of normally carrying it to term! Which is better? Ending up with a bunch of premature and unhealthy babies just because their mothers didn't want to carry them, or let it as it is and let people who really want to abort, do it anyways? Even if late-term abortions or what not we're legal, you would still have those people who don't have enough money, or their parents consent that are looking for the easy and cheap way out and would do it in an un-safe way. I'm really not sure what's better...

sgt4life

15th June 2004, 08:16

And it will happen anyways. From women using a coathanger or just harming themselves to abort the child (like purposly falling down the stairs or slamming their stomachs into something).
OD'ing on common household drugs (like Tylenol) is a common one... and that can kill the mother too.

Lorenza

15th June 2004, 08:29

There's a web site that I know which has very graphic detail on what happens to these babies in the process of an abortion. The majortiy of the pictures involved the baby's head being crushed. Ever since I have never even thought of having an abortion if I ever had an unwanted pregnancy. I totally understand if the mother gets into a situation where it's a matter of life and death. But for teenagers to be getting pregnant at that stage of their life shouldn't be even happening. Right now in Toronto, ON. it seems as if teenage pregnancy has become a trend and a lot of people are just accepting it much easily now then back before my time(a decade ago).

Little Cadet

15th June 2004, 08:33

There's a web site that I know which has very graphic detail on what happens to these babies in the process of an abortion. The majortiy of the pictures involved the baby's head being crushed.
Umm maybe you're right... but I tend to think that this must be an exagerated demonstration from anti-abortion groups. Seems to work, since you never want an abortion after seeing that. Maybe it's not? Not that I want to discuss the way they do it, but why bother doing it that way when as soon as it is out the womb, it cannot survive? And I believe that before a certain time, they feel no pain, which is one of the reasons why they do it then?

Lorenza

15th June 2004, 08:59

What I ment was because the mother isn't ready for labor yet and the birth canal is closed the doctor has to find a way to get it out in this kind of process. Lets say, she was 2 months pregnant these clinic's usually use a vacume and if she is 7 months pregnant the clinic will perform a different way of aborting the baby. What they do is, reach in to the vagina, feel for the infant's head and then use these big tong-like looking type of things and crush the infant's head so that the rest of the infant's body slides right out her. And ti actually was an ANTI-ABORTING web site I saw those pictures on. If you really want to know the address just let me know. But like I said it's very graph detailed photos.

Ching

15th June 2004, 10:24

ahem. An infant's shoulders are wider than its head. Just like my shoulders are wider than my head. Smooshing a head won't cause the rest of the body to slide right out.
I wouldn't put too much stock in the "facts" on an anti-abortion website. Nor any other anti-something website. PETA's websites are prime examples of why we should take any anti-stuff with a rather large grain of salt. Don't get me started on Circuses.com and all the absolute bs on there. :rolleyes:

katielloyd

15th June 2004, 11:01

There's a web site that I know which has very graphic detail on what happens to these babies in the process of an abortion. The majortiy of the pictures involved the baby's head being crushed.

That only happens in certain cases. The thing is, that a baby only has rights after it has been completely removed from the birth canal so it isn't legally considered killing it. The head-smashing thing doesn't happen in legitimate clinics though (that I know of). And even in illegal abortions it's only perfeormed in late-term and not suring the first trimester.

Ching

15th June 2004, 11:10

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/LIBRARY/ABORTION/howabort_fact.html
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Abortion_procedures?open
http://www.fwhc.org/abortion/ab-procedures.htm
There's no mention of any late-term abortion. And I think the procedure's description is deterrent enough for anyone who doesn't want the abortion for safety reasons. *shudder* Just administering the local anaesthetic sounds bad enough to me. *shudder shudder shudder*

sgt4life

19th June 2004, 08:56

I honestly don't believe any self-respecting doctor in Canada or in the US would perform a late term abortion unless under VERY strenuous circumstances. As in, circumstances SO strenuous that there isn't a single example I can think of. When you hear people in general talk about abortions, they mean abortions in the first trimester. This is done using suction and sraping, NOT by crushing the foetus' head.

Ching

19th June 2004, 16:53

This is done using suction and sraping,
*shudder shudder shudder shudder*

DMCorrigan

19th June 2004, 17:19

First of all, I'm very impressed with the maturity of the comments here. This is a very sensitive subject as it is deep-seated in religion and personal beliefs. Kudos to you all.

...that said, I will dispel some VERY disturbing opinions here.

First of all, many anti-abortion sites DO put up real pictures of abortions. Of course they do! They're very accurate on what happens in back alley abortions in third world countries , NOT what happens in Canadian abortion clinics. Yes, a small vacuum-like apparatus is used to suck out the endometrium. It also acts as a sort of three-month birth control, rendering the uterus inhospitable to fetal implantation for a period of approximately three months, much like it is during the time when menstration is occuring.

Three months ago, I was sent a chain e-mail with very disturbing images of fetuses aborted from 3 weeks to 49 weeks. They were very much graphic and disturbing, because they were done in back-alley abortion 'clinics', which is basically through the use of a coat-hanger or other such nearby object. Back-alley abortions have a very high risk of infertility of the mother, or death of both fetus and mother.

HOWEVER, in medical clinics in developed nations such as Canada, the United States, the UK, Australia, South Africa, etc., those 'back-alley' abortions are not the abortions that are done in clinics. The abortions done in clinics are very, very safe (with even higher safety in early weeks), and they are very clean.

My views on abortion shall remain unsaid. This is just some scientific information to go from and some truths about the anti-abortions groups and their images.

Lorenza

19th June 2004, 18:04

ahem. An infant's shoulders are wider than its head. Just like my shoulders are wider than my head. Smooshing a head won't cause the rest of the body to slide right out. ...

Okay I understand that part but an unborn child's shoulders are smaller than it's head and the head/skull is much softer than the rest of the bones in the baby's body before it's born so that the head will fit through the narrow birth canal during vaginal birth. But, I was honest about the clinics crushing the unborn childs head. That is what they honestly do.

DMCorrigan

19th June 2004, 19:26

I don't want to know about what sick clinic you're thinking of. They honestly don't.

Chief Hoult

19th June 2004, 19:33

I remember hearing that somewhere...I can't remember where though...it was a while ago...

I BELIEVE that the reason the head is crushed (if it actually happens) is because it stops the babys brain from functioning (....clearly...) and as a result of this, it causes the woman the miscarry, or something to that affect (shows how much I remember from grade 10 health).

Now, why the head if the shoulders are wider? Well....let's so you have a 3 inch whole you're trying to get something though...you have a ball with a 4 inch diameter...or a pole that is 5 inches long, but has only a 2 inch diameter.

The pole can be manipulated to go through...the ball can't.

Again, I can't quite remember where I heard this (although I'm sure it was grade 10 health). I'll ask my bio teacher tommorow.

CH

Juice

19th June 2004, 19:34

I don't want to know about what sick clinic you're thinking of. They honestly don't.

Me neither. Abortion is a very sensitive subject, and is very hard to discuss without anyone getting offended. However, the way abortions are performed is a subject that I feel is very hard to discuss, because somehow I doubt any of us have actually witnessed an abortion in a licensed clinic, so we can't really say how they are done. i wouldn't believe what any websites tell you, especially anti ones, because they tend to make things look worse than they really are, and that is as bad as lying about it, because it still makes people think in a certain way about abortions, regardless of how they are actually performed. I am not going to say my opinion on this subject, because I feel I can't have an educated opinion on it, so i will just keep my mouth shut on that one. ;)

Chief Hoult

19th June 2004, 19:39

http://my.webmd.com/hw/womens_conditions/tw9202.asp?lastselectedguid={5FE84E90-BC77-4056-A91C-9531713CA348}

WebMD, some interesting info...

CH

DMCorrigan

19th June 2004, 19:43

I haven't heard of that method used in early abortion. I honestly can't say for late abortions, though.

I can probably tell you better once I start first-year Human Biology next year.

Lorenza

21st June 2004, 13:14

I heard that after the procedure is done, the "was expecting mother" starts to go a little "Coo-Coo" or goes into a deep depression. Can anyone tell me if this is true or clearify it a bit.

katielloyd

21st June 2004, 13:42

I heard that after the procedure is done, the "was expecting mother" starts to go a little "Coo-Coo" or goes into a deep depression. Can anyone tell me if this is true or clearify it a bit.
The depression part is true. The medical explaination is that after you lose a child your hormones go out of whack which causes the depression. The psychological explaination is that they have trouble dealing with what they've just done. You can chose the one you prefer.

Juice

21st June 2004, 13:46

DMCorrigan

21st June 2004, 14:28

The depression part is true. The medical explaination is that after you lose a child your hormones go out of whack which causes the depression. The psychological explaination is that they have trouble dealing with what they've just done. You can chose the one you prefer.

Aye, the depression is true, but the "psychological explaination" you just brought up is not true. Most pro-choice people are just that; pro-choice. They chose to have the abortion. Most of them don't have a problem with doing it. I have a sneaking suspicion that the "psychological explaination" you put forth here is that of a pro-lifer. A pro-lifer would have a problem with that. Most pro-choicers don't.

However, I'll bust out the biology stick here. Katielloyd is right, hormones are high in both estrogen and progesterone when a fetus is growing, because it's releasing human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG) that sustains the corpus luteum to have it continue producing hormones. After an abortion, the HCG suddenly is cut off, and therefore a rapid drop in hormone levels occurs. This means the post-abortion lady is in a state of almost PMS/depression, depending on which side the lady takes to. A woman that suffers PMS regularly would probably PMS for a while. A woman that does not would more likely take to depression rather than PMS.

If someone with more biology knowledge than me would care to correct any mistake I may have made, I'd appreciate it. Going into biology myself, I like to be right ;) So please, correct me if I'm wrong.

Insane Power Pilot

21st June 2004, 17:25

I've always pointed this out to pro-life people. What if a woman/girl was raped and ended up pregnant, would she really want to bring up a child, or bring a child into life who was brought into the world by such a horrible act?

Well, I believe women and everyone else should be allowed to carry concealed handguns (properly licensed and registered of course) in order to prevent such an occurrence. Hey, if you're not part of the solution...

But that's digging into my thoughts on gun control...

wb256

21st June 2004, 17:35

Well, I believe women and everyone else should be allowed to carry concealed handguns (properly licensed and registered of course) in order to prevent such an occurrence. Hey, if you're not part of the solution...

But that's digging into my thoughts on gun control...

Does little if someone sneaks up behind you with his gun, holds it to your head and then undresses you.

Crimne will not miraculously stop if we relax gun laws. If it would, why is our violent crime rate lower than that of the USA (where gun laws are FAR more relaxed).

Insane Power Pilot

24th June 2004, 16:55

Crimne will not miraculously stop if we relax gun laws. If it would, why is our violent crime rate lower than that of the USA (where gun laws are FAR more relaxed).

Canadians also own more guns per capita. This is going to sound really NRA, but the people behind the guns are the problem...

DMCorrigan

24th June 2004, 17:13

Bringing the debate back on topic...

Lorenza

25th June 2004, 13:11

DMCorrigan

25th June 2004, 22:39

Do they really have trouble dealing with it or, is it the horomones that make them feel that way?

I will cover this question. Most women, 95+ percent of them, who have an abortion are pro-choice. They chose to have that abortion, so they wouldn't have too big of a problem with it. Those that somehow were forced or were pro-lifers that had pro-choice boyfriends that pressured them into having an abortion may have had a problem with it and became depressed.

There IS hormone changes. A fetus implanted in the uterine lining keeps estrogen and progesterone levels high, and when it is gone by abortion, those hormones rapidly decrease. The woman will have less of their hormones at that point, and may become moody/angry/depressed.

BOSN_ROCKS_JOSH

26th June 2004, 05:03

ok .... every person has heard about abortion, but many people don't believe in having a abortion, some do, can't just judge a person about wether they want to have a kid or not, many people who think about having a abortion are people who can not support a child... and are not ready for having a child. i also think that the baby growing inside a mother should have the chance to live if the circumstances are right. It Basically comes down to whether the mother is able to provide for the baby, and her belief in abortion.

prettypinksailor

28th June 2004, 16:36

i think women should have the option to do it but i will never have an abortion no matter what but i think it should be out there

BOSN_ROX_JESSICA

29th June 2004, 11:27

I think abortion is a choice one person has to make when they are faced with news of being pregnant when they are not ready to have a child. I believe having an abortion depends on how u conceived the child. If you were a teenager and had a child and didn't really know where your life would take you and you didnt know how you would b able to support the child I think abortion should b realy thought about before u actually do have one because even thou the fetus may not have become a human like form yet, it still has a heart that beats. That fetus could change your life more then you'll ever kno. I kno someone who had an abortion and regrets it every day of her life. There is more options than abortion in deciding wat to do if u become pregnant such as adoption, being a single parent and more... So before you really conclude by having an abortion think of all the pros and cons that could come out of it.

fivecentpiece

23rd July 2004, 10:17

fivecentpiece

23rd July 2004, 10:19

i think women should have the option to do it but i will never have an abortion no matter what but i think it should be out there

I know alot of people that think the same way you do. but if your in that sittuation even thou you swore against abortion before, it deffinately crossess your mind.

RatherBeFlyin

28th July 2004, 11:12

Whatever a woman decides to do to her body is her own business and nobody elses.

Insane Power Pilot

28th July 2004, 17:29

Whatever a woman decides to do to her body is her own business and nobody elses.

*sigh* Did you read the rest of the topic?

AthleticInstructor

28th July 2004, 18:05

I was talking to someone who worked at an aboption clinic, and she told me that the majority of people are not teenages but are late 20 and early 30 year olds who allready have families. Post Aboption Depression happens more frequently to teenages than more mature adults.
This is information I think you guys/girls may find interesting. Also remember this is someones observation , experence and knowledge. Which you should conclude on.

Saddly if anyone gets rapped go to the hospital as soon as possible. They will give you medication to prevent pregnacy and check to make sure you are ok.

AthleticInstructor

28th July 2004, 18:08

Whatever a woman decides to do to her body is her own business and nobody elses.

If she has sex and get pregnant it is beyond just her. She invited some else.

Sarah209

29th July 2004, 07:17

Well...dont get mad at me if i repeat anything someone said cuz i never read this full thread...just some ..
what I think is... late-abortion should only be done if the doctors know for certain that if the baby is to be born that the mother and the baby will die...like to save the mothers life if you can't save the baby's? i guess that's what I'm trying to say.
as for the catholic church and the whole thing against birth control...I'm catholic, and I disagree with it...obviously so do many others because if not there'd be way more kids around here.... and i'm gonna stop there..because convo's about when a life really starts is so touchy
also...for abortion, i think that GOOD clinics should sit down and go through all the options you know ... i don't know if they do so someone can tell me if they do cuz obviouslly ive never been to one.

Lola

29th July 2004, 23:21

I don't know, but shouldn't something that's alive be able to breathe? I believe it takes about 12 weeks for the baby's heart to develop, and I think that's the cut off date for abortions.
Something I'm concerned about is that the pro-lifers also seem to want to get rid of birth control, which is completely ridiculous. If woman had better access to and better kinds of birth control, than abortions probably would go down. You'd think they'd make the connection. :rolleyes:

Insane Power Pilot

30th July 2004, 23:34

Something I'm concerned about is that the pro-lifers also seem to want to get rid of birth control, which is completely ridiculous.

That is completely ridiculous. Sounds like something the orthodox catholics would say. I think what they're going for is complete abstinence and in today's over-sexed society, I think that's asking too much. :rolleyes:

RatherBeFlyin

31st July 2004, 16:11

*sigh* Did you read the rest of the topic?

Who cares whether I did or didn't. Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion.

Insane Power Pilot

31st July 2004, 18:03

Who cares whether I did or didn't. Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion.

The thing is that this topic had evolved way beyond "Whatever a woman decides to do to her body is her own business and nobody elses." It wasn't exactly new insight to the discussion.

Lola

31st July 2004, 23:12

That is completely ridiculous. Sounds like something the orthodox catholics would say. I think what they're going for is complete abstinence and in today's over-sexed society, I think that's asking too much. :rolleyes:

Just to clarify, when I say pro-lifers, I don't mean all of them, just those in positions of power.

wb256

2nd August 2004, 15:34

Something I'm concerned about is that the pro-lifers also seem to want to get rid of birth control, which is completely ridiculous. If woman had better access to and better kinds of birth control, than abortions probably would go down. You'd think they'd make the connection. :rolleyes:

The US government has an odd catch to the same effect as that when giving out foreign aid.

They won't send birth control type aid (sending condoms, etc) to 3rd world governments that support abortion (not just legalize but support in some way I believe). Now, by denying them condons think of how many more abortions they have caused!

And yes ratherbyflying, you're entitled to your own opinion. However, that opinion means a whole lot less when it's an uneducated one. There's been some points raised that make your argument seem quite uneducated. This point being, that after numerous recent scientific tests we have determined that it infact takes 2 people (man and woman) to create a child. Granted there are many deadbeat dads that don't care if their wife/girlfriend/one night stand he met at the bus stop after a night at the pub abort his unborn child (or what happens to her/the child ultimatly), and many who are pro choice. However, is it fair to put the entire decision into the hands of the women when the male may want the child to live?