Immigration?

[frammy]

Here in the Uk there is emense discussion about the state of the country when it comes to immigrants and saying that "Illegal Immigrants"

Do you think having tight border security is a good thing? or do you think we should have open borders to our neighbours?

I live in an area of the uk where you see hardly any ethnic minority groups yet people here are so old fashioned they want to keep this land for ligitimate born citizens of the UK

I have just visited Kingston Upon Hull where there is a mass population of assylum seekers and it is not a happy sight.

These people has travelled thousand of miles and are being accomodated in run down property while their cases are being reviewed.

This is not acceptable in my eyes, even if they are not legal UK citizens, they should be treadted decently until their status is full evaluated.

Saying that i believe there should be a limit of how many are accepted a year as this country is see as a free for all by some.

whats your thoughts?

[Llenlleawc]

There are two separate issues here which need to be addressed. The first is over illegal immigrants and the second is over asylum seekers. Illegal immigrants are people who go to a country with no idea of the job which they are going to hold and therefore are more likely than not to be living off benefits for some time. Asylum seekers are coming from a country where they are being persecuted and hope to find safety elsewhere.

Much of the controversy at the moment in the UK is regarding immigrants. For those of you who don't know the back story is quite long and drawn out but basically revolves around allegations that the government tried to reduce the number of people who will be entering the country from EU countries, (which they can do freely) when a number of new countries join the EU in a few months, by quickly rushing them in now. In particular immigration from two countries was stopped after a whistleblower approached the Shadow Home Secretary about the problem and a little later the Immigration Minister was forced to resign. In particular there were stories such as a one legged bricklayer who knew nothing about building being let into the country (along with others), authorised at a relatively high level. Now I for one believed Beverly Hughes MP (the ex-Immigration Minister) should have gone then - taking responsibility for the actions of her department (she went later when she lied about the amount she knew about all this) but in general the state of immigration over the last couple of parliaments hasn't been that bad - while there has been an increase it has mostly been in workers and students, not illegal immigrants. What has happened recently though is a disgrace. Obviously though the opposition is going to make a larger issue out of it than it really is and bring in asylum seekers as well.

On that subject I think our asylum rules need to be tightened. Really asylum seekers should go to the first country they can where they will be treated fairly but there are stories of people passing through both France and Germany to get to the UK because they feel they will get a better deal here.

There is quite a bit more to this but I'll stop there and let people come back on these issues.

[frammy]

Cheers for that nick


I knew you would put it in a better way

:)

[wingnut]

I have resently been studying this topic in Religious Studies...I dont know if this help or If it is even what you are looking for but I have these extratcs from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
Article 13:
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
2. Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 14:
1. Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
2. This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principle of the United Nations.

Hope this helped.???

[Lancaster]

im confused :D
so all i can say is; " be free" "be freinds and "keep peace"

[piper]

The world charter of human rights is all good and dandy, but when do the interests of the individual end and those of the state and its society as a whole begin? A country can't just let in anyone who comes, yes, most immigrants are good people and are well meaning, but there are always a few bad apples. I'm just saying that you have to be careful, you can let in everyone, but then you also let in terrorists, criminals etc.

[wb256]

Well, the interests of societies living within individual nation-states is great too, but when does the wellbeing of the entire human race come into play?

Yes, some immigrants are criminals. So are some Canadians. We don't judge all Canadians to be criminals, so why all immigrants?

[Llenlleawc]

Well, the interests of societies living within individual nation-states is great too, but when does the wellbeing of the entire human race come into play?

Yes, some immigrants are criminals. So are some Canadians. We don't judge all Canadians to be criminals, so why all immigrants?

This is what I was saying about confusing immigrants and asylum seekers. Asylum seekers are the ones protected by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and rightly so as they are being persecuted in their own countries. Many people feel that immigrants on the other hand are "stealing" their jobs/benefits.

[wingnut]

The world charter of human rights is all good and dandy, but when do the interests of the individual end and those of the state and its society as a whole begin? A country can't just let in anyone who comes, yes, most immigrants are good people and are well meaning, but there are always a few bad apples. I'm just saying that you have to be careful, you can let in everyone, but then you also let in terrorists, criminals etc.

True.. but then you have instances like in Australia when there are Asylum seekers the Australian Government either sends them back to where they came from which are usually countrys at war or 3rd World Countrys or they get locked up in detention centres like Woomera Detention Centre where they are treated badly and in human when they were just trying to find what they may see as a "utopia" comapared to their home.
Or the Government ships them of to small island Nations such as Nauru where they are treated exactly the same.

[funkyfairy]

I wouldn't exactly say it's inhumane, maybe at times it is Todd we don't really know. I wouldn't say rioting and trashing the joint, even though it's a detention centre and they don't want to be there, is exactly endearing yourself to the country either.

We just hear what different people want us to hear. They entered the country illegally, it's no different from if someone came through the airport with a fake passport or visa, they get locked up. The only difference is that most of these people are coming through screaming "asylum".

[funkyfairy]

And since I couldn't add this bit to my last post because the edit button didn't work....

I guess it comes down to the powers that be to check that people have actually done or not done to the best of their ability, and for someone with one leg to be a brickie that really doesn't add up to me. If that was the case I'd guess the person was lying and wouldn't that be grounds to kick them out??? As for the living off benefits side of things, don't they have conditions like "you have to have lived in the country for blahblah amount of time, etc" before you can get them???

[Dave]

The problem I have with imigrants is why should I pay for them to come and live and scrounge off me.
I can understand that if they have genuine problems then it is a different matter. But a high percentage of them come over here with nothing but the clothes they are wearing, then expect me to have to pay for them.
They do this because they think they can have a better life over here than what they had in their own country.
We are then the stupid ones though for providing them with so much to be able to have a better life.
My personal opinion is that if they have a genuine reason to get out of their own country they should go to the nearest country which offers safe haven. They should then be given the same support and benefits as what they would have received in their OWN country, not the country they moved to.
If they just want to get out of their country to find somewhere better, then by all means let them, but they get no support from any other country and they do it all off their own backs. They may think twice about leaving in the first place that way.
Its about time the UK shut off the constant money milking to other countries peoples and started looking a little closer to home before trying to help the world.

[sailrox]

I don't think that's entirely fair.

Issues of wealth are a lot different in other countries. Families will save up for years to be able to immigrate, and yet when they arrive, find out that their money is next to worthless.

For example, somebody who is "rich" in a 3rd world country, is probably only going to be at a middle to lower class level if they come here (Canada), assuming they manage to keep all their money (I'll get more into that later)
Our cost of living is SO much higher than in so many of these countries.
Even within North America: Here in Ottawa, you're lucky to find a 1 bedroom apartment for 600$ Cdn. But my friends at university in Kentucky get entire HOUSES, 6 bedrooms for 600$ a month.
Imagine in a 3rd world country?

Secondly, savings can quickly be depleted just trying to get into the country. Some countries require "exit visas" just so you can leave, there's also travel costs for the family (not cheap at all!), entry permits, etc. Entry in Canada can cost thousands of dollars altogether.

Canada Entry Requirements and Fees (http://canadainternational.gc.ca/view-en.asp?Grp=00EB00F3010A&ID=266&act=2&tbID=2#Heading%204)

Most people who are happy, successful, and doing well in their own countries don't want to leave.. why would you?

[Dave]

Well I would say they should do their homework a little bit more. They should be happy with what they have, at least they are alive, some people are struggling for even that.

[Nick]

I prefer calling them illegal aliens... but then I'm a Star Trek fan.

On the serious note, I feel that somebody who immigrates, then sits on welfare (or social assistance) for the next few years should be deported and/or forced to pay back those monies... that is, if they were in fact capable of working, but just chose not to.

I have no patience or understanding or compassion for somebody who cannot help themselves to advance and do better. You work hard, it'll pay you back X10. Personally, I work very hard for what I've got and for what I do. I've earned it all fair and square.

[Fufu_65]

OKAY HOLD UP,

i was an immigrant and when we first came to Canada..my dad looked for a job for TWO WHOLE YEARS..and there was nothing he could do about the fact that there jsut wasn't a need for Civil Engineers at that time..what do u expect them to do!? make their own little jobs...but it is very hard for both parents to not work and survive..especially if u have children...so maybe u guys should rephrase that...'i have no compassion for immigrants who come to canada and live off or welfare for life..because they are NOT EVEN TRYING to get a job?'

i know a lot of immigrants who come here..and can't find work in their own field of business stuff..for ex: my mom...she used to be a civil engineer..but didn't liek working infront of a computer *it's different here then it is in Romania*...so she worked as a sales rep. at a jewlery store..and thene ventually went BACK to school and became a real estate agent...

there are alot of immigrants that change their jobs to not have to live off of the government...*btw they only give u like 1500 a month for a family of 4..and if u think about it..that's not alot AT ALL*..

just my 2 cents..don't think it made sense tho..lol

-SS

[Pilot]

well..

I know in Canada it seems that much gets under the radar of immigration. There are people who live here not adhering to the conditions that a normal citizen is subjected to (ie taxes) and they avoid this by just not declaring anything.

I feel that people should have a chance to immigrate to other countries, that's fine. However, those that do must adhere to the principles and laws of that particuliar country.

[piper]

I personally think that it is good to just be able to live, and if you try to come to another country illegally, you face the risks and if you are caught, you cannot really complain, you broke the rules and got caught-therefore you get punished (which in these cases is being sent back). I'm not being a bigot or anything of the like, I am just trying to express the reality of the world today. Not everyone gets to be well off, and rich, and uber-happy etc, and the best you can do is just live with it and carry on and if you wish to leave your country and enter a new land legally, thats quite alright (so many great doctors etc have been immigrants, most of us in Canada are actually, unless you are a Native-Canadian :p ), but if you do it illegally and you get caught...enough said. Its the sad reality of the world I guess, not everyone can be happy and live the Great (American, Canadian, etc etc) Dream.

[sailrox]

Keep in mind two MORE issues.

Firstly, language. Here where I live, you can't get a job in a lot of unless you speak IMPECCABLE french, as well as english. Ottawa's one of the most popular cities for new immigrants (I read that in the Citizen way back when when they did a series on it), and they get here and find out, oh dear. Not only do I have to master ONE language, I have to master another.

Secondly, jobs. It's a big issue right now. Immigrants who come into this country with good jobs, like engineers, doctors, nurses, etc, often times can't find jobs. Why? Because their credentials aren't recognized.
So what happens then? You could TRY go back to one of the Canadian universities, and start over, but that costs thousands of dollars, and if you aren't working in the meantime, who's feeding the family?


It's worth questioning one thing: we don't just get immigrants from 3rd world countries. We get them also from the US, Britain, France, Germany, Australia, etc. It's much rarer to hear of those citizens coming over a) as illegal immigrants, or b) in stereotypical "immigrant" jobs, like cabbies.
Why is that? I think it's quite possible because of the 3 reasons I've already suggested.
A) Similar standard of living
B) Language
C) Reputable credentials

[Tomtom]

i know a lot of immigrants who come here..and can't find work in their own field of business stuff..for ex: my mom...she used to be a civil engineer..but didn't liek working infront of a computer *it's different here then it is in Romania*...so she worked as a sales rep. at a jewlery store..and thene ventually went BACK to school and became a real estate agent...



A guy who used to work for me as a security guard at the Hospital for Sick Children was an X ray technician in his own country. Thankfully he had such a great boss, who hooked him up with the right contacts and he is able to practice in Canada now, but it was crap when I was only paying him min. wage ,,, I felt bad.

[Coomber 535]

Many people feel that immigrants on the other hand are "stealing" their jobs/benefits.

Well, what about affirmative action programs?

I don't think immigrants "steal" jobs... but sometimes make them. For example, look at how many own their own business... like corner stores, dollar stores, and foreign-typr grocery stores. Not only do they employ themselves, but thier family and friends.

[CONtroversial_subject]

Immigrants aint stealing jobs. They getting minimum wage for jobs y'all get paid alot more for, so how you gonna be complaining about that when you live in the suberbs and they live in some should be condemmed apartment as big as your bedroom. You ever think that maybe that immigrant gets the job cuz he works harder than you?

(i aint directing this at anybody, just something to think about)

[wb256]

Well, what about affirmative action programs?

I don't think immigrants "steal" jobs... but sometimes make them. For example, look at how many own their own business... like corner stores, dollar stores, and foreign-typr grocery stores. Not only do they employ themselves, but thier family and friends.

Or other people. My friend used to work for a Vietnamese guy who owned a coffeeshop/restaurant.

Immigrantion is GOOD for Canada. Our TFR is too small. And as for illegal immigrants, I don't see why the world NEEDS borders. Why do we deserve to live in an area so much more developed than others? Honestly. Why do you have the right to be on the internet posting this at your leisure while others inhabit areas where there is no hope for economic success that comes anywhere near to being as propsperous as people we refer to as "poor" in Canada. Just because you were born here? Because the person who gave birth to you was born here? No offence but, so what? Why does place of Birth determine the quality of life someone has?

[CONtroversial_subject]

I think canada needs to crack down its immigration from outside the US, to take care of the terrorist problem, so that we can have a more open border with the states. Like why can't Canada just do that, instead we gotta suffer everytime we tryin to see our neighbors. I know I be goin to the states all the time and I hate the crap we gotta go through now.

[lord_rupert]

Three points - first recent research showed that the UK would be economically struggling without migrants to do the rubbish jobs that nobody else wants.

Secondly who can claim to be truly British - even those who claim to be native Britons if they go back far enough will start to find their French & Roman blood, even further back there was the occupation by the Anglo-Saxons. So surely it can be argued we are all immigrants.

Thirdly - let me paint you a picture - your town is embroiled in Civil War, your neighbour no longer trusts you and would like to kill you for the simple reason that your race is not acceptable to them. Other villages and towns have been the scene of horrific massacres. Do you wait to find out if you will be next?? Or do you flee your home and all your posessions in the hope of a safe haven in the UK or elsewhere???

ROO :)

[Because_i_can]

i think we close all borders and asylum seekers who are scrounging get kicked out unless there seeking asylum from the republic of ireland we are not there closest most accesible country so in theory shouldnt have any of em.

[Neo]

Immigration is a good thing, firstly, Immigrants want to work, they don't travel all the way across the world to go on Welfare, unlike many Canadians who consider it a way of life instead of an assistance program. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, it opens us to another way of thinking, it can create new and innovative techniques to do thing, making Canada Stronger.

I read a post about immigrants opening businesses and hiring family and friends... so what? The more people who work the better.

Let's open up the borders... and make sure trained professionals (doctors, engineers, etc) can get Jobs here in Canada instead of driving taxi's....

[KarlSchultz]

I just find it kind of stupid that they don't have to pay taxes for their first few years in country. I aslo find some of the regulations weird. imigration will take an asian or east indian person before tehy will take a european person

[lord_rupert]

Personally I'd do some cunning swaps - members of the British National Party and dole bludgers for some hard working immigrants..

ROO :p

[aduff]

Purely and Simply:

I don't see why immigrants coming over here seeking asylum should be housed and fed when there are still British people on the street and hungry.

And as Matt states seeking political asylum means you go to the first friendly country you come to not Britain as we seem to keep the door open.

[wb256]

[QUOTE=aduff]I don't see why immigrants coming over here seeking asylum should be housed and fed when there are still British people on the street and hungry.[QUOTE]


Because there are people being slaughtered for their ethnic/religious background, far worse than begging (not starving) in Britian. Also, why do British people have a right to a better life just because they were born in Britian?

"Forget about the Africans, there are british people starving!"

Dosn't work in my mind.

[KarlSchultz]

Works in mine. I don't understand why so many people give to over seas charities when there are people still on the streets back here at home.

[lord_rupert]

And as Matt states seeking political asylum means you go to the first friendly country you come to not Britain as we seem to keep the door open.

We take the smallest percentage of asylum seekers of the whole of Europe.
Incidentally refugees can offer this country a diversity that is a bonus. Just look back into your family tree and I would be very surprised if every single generation was purely British. Even my family on my mother's side has Polish ancestry after they served this country in World War Two.
If you look closely at BNP propaganda - they advocate sending back those who they claim are not truely British - will that include me by virtue of my Polish grandfather or will they just restrict it to those of Asian Origin :mad:

To bring in a flippant point, many of those who are 'concerned' about those starving on British streets seem to have no qualms about forcing through a hunt ban with subsequent loss of homes and employment for over 2000 people who are currently housed and employed at no expense to the state!

[aduff]

To bring in a flippant point, many of those who are 'concerned' about those starving on British streets seem to have no qualms about forcing through a hunt ban with subsequent loss of homes and employment for over 2000 people who are currently housed and employed at no expense to the state!

Cross topic pollination :p

True ethinic groups offer a diversity to our current, those who come to Britain get a work permit and work in the country. I know we can't survive without legal immigrants who offer skills such as doctors, IT consultants etc etc.

What I have a problem with is that people come over here taking council houses and benefits which I personally feel they are not entitled to. I understand that they suffer in there own countries and I really feel for that but mnay come to our country and suffer just as much with racists and bigots. If they came over and offered something to the community there would be very little resentment to them.

Warren, British people don't have a better right to live than Africans or any other nationality, however they have more right to be provided for by British money than anyone else.

[piper]

I am of the opinion that we must fix our country's own problems with poverty etc before we start letting in new people. Why should we let other people and their problems into my country when we haven't fixed ours? On another point, I think there should be a point made to all new immigrants, you can keep your culture, but any and all baggage that comes with you (warfare, terrorism, anti-west sentiments) stay at the door. I am tired of this country letting in people who are very anti-west and anti-democracy etc, I'm thinking of the Khadrs again. They come in and spout all that c*** and whatnot, and yet all our leaders do is give them money and an emergency passport to...accomplish what? Welcome to Canada, how may we support your terrorist group today?

[lord_rupert]

[QUOTE=aduff]Cross topic pollination :p

What I have a problem with is that people come over here taking council houses and benefits which I personally feel they are not entitled to. I understand that they suffer in there own countries and I really feel for that but mnay come to our country and suffer just as much with racists and bigots. If they came over and offered something to the community there would be very little resentment to them.
QUOTE]

Was hoping nobody would notice that little hybridisation!
So what makes a dole bludger who has never suffered anything more harsh than no having the latest Nikes any more entitled to a council house because he is British than an immigrant who has suffered torture and worse??

ROO